So...the US Army gets the Sig MCX in .277 Fury?

Woulda been nice if we'd had this round in Iraq and Afg.....
I guess it may make some sense in Korea if the NKs and/or the Chicoms head South again.
Not sure how useful it will be island hopping across the PRC bases in the SCS- which is going to be the primary responsibility of the Marines anyway.....
Honestly, Big Army isn't going to have much to do in the next war unless we lose really, really badly and the PLA decides to actually invade Japan, Guam, or Hawaii.

It will take 2 to 4 years to update body armor and another 30 to 40 years to come up with the next big ballistics advancement.
Any advantage on body armor will be short lived.

I am not a prophet, but I predict it burns out barrels, has more recoil than the average soldier can handle, is uncontrollable on full auto and weighs too much. (it's the m14 all over again) They will eventually download it to a more reasonable pressure. it will see limited service but not actually replace the m4. The 250,000 units will turn out to be more like 50K due to budgetary issues, and somebody in the army will say "dang, we shouldn't have blown all that money replacing a handgun we didn't need in the first place."

or not.

Phaedrus/69 said:

I wonder what the .277 Fury will do that they couldn't have done with 7.62x54 NATO?

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Did you mean 7.62x51?

Well, several things here. Army is only getting around 100 of these, and not the million or so needed for a full replacement. Along with about 100 as potential M-249 SAW replacements.
So, this is not a "done deal" in any way.

The "why" a 7x51round is any better a SAW than a 7.62x51 is a giant question.

Dollars to donuts, the entire inventory winds up either at Crane or McDill and winds up something only used by SOC.

NIGHTLORD40K said:

and the PLA decides to actually invade Japan, Guam, or Hawaii.

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Given that PLAN only has about 6-8 amphibious ships able to cross the 80 miles to Taiwan, the rest of the Pacific Island chains are reasonably safe for the time being.

Phaedrus/69 said:

won't new armor be designed to defeat this round within six months to a years?

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Assuredly - but it’ll cost more and weigh more, which isn’t a bad position to force upon your enemy.

CapnMac said:

Well, several things here. Army is only getting around 100 of these, and not the million or so needed for a full replacement. Along with about 100 as potential M-249 SAW replacements.
So, this is not a "done deal" in any way.

The "why" a 7x51round is any better a SAW than a 7.62x51 is a giant question.

Dollars to donuts, the entire inventory winds up either at Crane or McDill and winds up something only used by SOC.

Given that PLAN only has about 6-8 amphibious ships able to cross the 80 miles to Taiwan, the rest of the Pacific Island chains are reasonably safe for the time being.

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Im seeing reporting of 250K rifles in the contract......?

As far as PLAN amphibious capabilities, China has a LOT of cargo ships- remember the beginning of Red Storm Rising?

Didn't we have this discussion? Last I knew we were seeing press releases. At this point I am thinking more like wishful thinking on manufactures part. I kinda agree with Captn Mac and greyling. It depends on who rubberstamps the field trials. And who has the best lobbyist

NIGHTLORD40K said:

Onc

Im seeing reporting of 250K rifles in the contract......?

As far as PLAN amphibious capabilities, China has a LOT of cargo ships- remember the beginning of Red Storm Rising?

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I loved that book

NIGHTLORD40K said:

As far as PLAN amphibious capabilities, China has a LOT of cargo ships- remember the beginning of Red Storm Rising?

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Red Storm Rising was a good book. Mind, having been the Landing Operations Officer for an entire Regimental Landing Team (back when we had ops that small) I took issue with some of the details. Not enough to stop reading, but a few "harumphs" or two.

Phaedrus/69 said:

Well, I guess I just figured the Army was kicking the tires like they always do but apparently the Sig MCX Spear in .277 Fury will be the next infantry rifle. I'm a bit flummoxed by this. Of all the entries it seemed like Sig was the least innovative but maybe that's what they want? Certainly Sig has the capacity to make enough guns, and they're big enough to have good lawyers and lobbyists. Supposedly one of the big goals was to give the infantry a rifle that performed well against body armor but I'm not sure how that will work out. Does the 140gr .277 pill out-penetrate M2 "Black Tip" out of an ought-six? Just looking at the math & states specs I don't see it defeating modern Level IV reliably much less the new NIJ-spec that's coming. Even if it does, won't new armor be designed to defeat this round within six months to a years? Color me skeptical.

On paper it's impressive and a bit scary! They're supposedly getting 3,100 fps out of a 13.5" barrel! But chamber pressure is a smokin' 80,000 cup! View attachment 1079216 I think that was why they're using a three-piece casing with a stainless steel head and rim. Ultimately though there's no free lunch; how will thing not chew up barrels? It sounds like they expect barrel life to be about 1/3 that of an M4. With high-tech SS-case ammo and a rifle made by SIG I expect this to be the most expensive small arms system in military history.

And this sucker is a pig! IIRC the base carbine weight is around 8.5 lbs? Add all the crap the military typically does (eg. white/IR/DBall, RDS, switches, etc) and this thing will make the M1 Garand seem svelte!

The standard mags look to be 20 rounds with a 25 round mag being really large. For all intents and purposes this thing is a proprietary AR10, with heavy rifles, heavy mags and heavy ammo. IIRC the present load-out is 210 rounds (7 x 30/rnd mags), so will the new standard be 140 rounds of heavier ammo?

Maybe this thing will revolutionize warfare as we know it but am I the only one that feels like the US Army is trying to roll the clock back to 1950?

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They wanted the sig pistol before they conducted the trial which was apparent when they released the specs. Now it seems they want a Sig rifle as well. They already conducted caliber trials when evaluating options at the time that the SPC was being developed. It was written and published that 6.8 cal was selected for its terminal performance advantages. Now they want 6.8 but a lot faster than the spc class of cartridges.

I spent my last 2 + years in a SOF unit where I did nothing but train personnel already assigned within the command as snipers and assaulters, along with the R&D of various equipment to support that training. SO much scuttlebutt and rumors and articles from places like Popular Mechanics and other sources spoke of our next weapon, ammunition, and various other gizmos that were going to be "the future" were very puzzling, since the majority of these things never even made it to our level. Advances in better body armor, helmets, other enablers to improve survivability, and night vision capabilities made the most difference at the user level in the field, IMO. The same thing was said about the 6.8 SPC/M4 project- the closest these things went into standardization was a few uppers and the requisite ammo made it into theater and saw some limited use. The new pistol program for "big army" had about 4 separate "false starts", for example. The most memorable that actually went anywhere (and was ultimately put to sleep) for us was the SCAR project. It took a war to make actual (and needed) progress resulting in things like sniper systems in magnum calibers (by their nature, sniper systems are not issued in large quantities) and a gas operated AR based sniper system that actually worked correctly that wasn't the size of a punt gun with the suppressor attached. The USMC somehow convinced the powers that the HK 416 was the answer they needed (as a standard infantry arm) moving forward- under false pretenses, in my opinion- but they replaced ancient M16 variants with a better weapon in the process, so that was and is a win for them. Although I still don't understand the USMC SOF on again/off again relationship with the 1911. Also, don't lose sight of the fact that these new calibers (more so than new weapons systems) fly right in the face of NATO standardization (as it applies to standard issue small arms) and produces a logistical nightmare in the supply channel, since such "updates" are generally phased in over a period of time, filtering through various units. Finally, budgetary constraints in these times make me look "askance" at such scuttlebutt and rumors.

Any reported data on barrel life?

If a 270 WSM is toast in under 1,500 rounds I would expect the .277 Sig will be less.

Nature Boy said:

Any reported data on barrel life?

If a 270 WSM is toast in under 1,500 rounds I would expect the .277 Sig will be less.

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Sig is claiming 10-12k rounds. No idea what magic steel they are using for their barrels.

C-grunt said:

Sig is claiming 10-12k rounds. No idea what magic steel they are using for their barrels.

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They accidentally added the "k"....

They may get 10k rounds of life. Isn't the acceptable accuracy of the m4 something like 7MOA. Ive read 5 and ive read 7. One could throw a bullet down a 2 inch schedule 40 pipe and dang near get 7 MOA.

Burned out would vary greatly based on your tolerance of accuracy degradation

The barrel is most likely Nitrided, which adds quite a bit of barrel life. Now if it’s standard steel..no Nitriding, no Chrome-lining, lucky if it gets 1000rds.

Yeah.. I’m not sold. Quite frankly, we've hit the ceiling when it comes to the Percussion Lock, metallic cartridge system used in firearms today. Every few years a manufacturer convinces *SOME that they indeed have “cracked the code” for the advancement of small arms metallic cartridge. But it’s all smoke & mirrors. We’ve been there, done that, so to speak. Reloaders have been rolling their own extremely high pressure rounds for many, many years! Or cartridges like the 6.5 Creedmoor, convincing people that somehow a smaller cartridge, with a 30 degree shoulder can do what a MAGNUM cartridge does, LOL! And people continue falling for the ruse because….well, people like shiny new things.

The only real advancement is the Electromagnetic Railgun. Unfortunately, we need to crack the mystery of Cold Fusion before we can make that worth anything. Also the issue of the RailGun literally RIPPING itself apart from the power. So anyhoo…No, I believe we will continue the way it’s been. Manufacturers will continue spending money making us think they’ve opened Pandora's Box ..sadly, some, ignorant of facts, will be SOLD on the idea of the latest & greatest. Our military will continue doing what they do… WASTING money! And yes, articles will continue of the military finding a more better’er “replacement” for this or that. Meanwhile, they will continue using 5.56 in the vast majority.

And before any get excited about the potential for their “Westinghouse Phased Plasma Rifle in the 40-Watt Range”, I believe our world is short lived for it. The depravity & breakdown of morality over the the last 50 years, but even more convincing, the last 10 years, points to Christ’s return and ending this broken Earth.

David Hoback said:

The barrel is most likely Nitrided, which adds quite a bit of barrel life. Now if it’s standard steel..no Nitriding, no Chrome-lining, lucky if it gets 1000rds.

Yeah.. I’m not sold. Quite frankly, we've hit the ceiling when it comes to the Percussion Lock, metallic cartridge system used in firearms today. Every few years a manufacturer convinces *SOME that they indeed have “cracked the code” for the advancement of small arms metallic cartridge. But it’s all smoke & mirrors. We’ve been there, done that, so to speak. Reloaders have been rolling their own extremely high pressure rounds for many, many years! Or cartridges like the 6.5 Creedmoor, convincing people that somehow a smaller cartridge, with a 30 degree shoulder can do what a MAGNUM cartridge does, LOL! And people continue falling for the ruse because….well, people like shiny new things.

The only real advancement is the Electromagnetic Railgun. Unfortunately, we need to crack the mystery of Cold Fusion before we can make that worth anything. Also the issue of the RailGun literally RIPPING itself apart from the power. So anyhoo…No, I believe we will continue the way it’s been. Manufacturers will continue spending money making us think they’ve opened Pandora's Box ..sadly, some, ignorant of facts, will be SOLD on the idea of the latest & greatest. Our military will continue doing what they do… WASTING money! And yes, articles will continue of the military finding a more better’er “replacement” for this or that. Meanwhile, they will continue using 5.56 in the vast majority.

And before any get excited about the potential for their “Westinghouse Phased Plasma Rifle in the 40-Watt Range”, I believe our world is short lived for it. The depravity & breakdown of morality over the the last 50 years, but even more convincing, the last 10 years, points to Christ’s return and ending this broken Earth.

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Amen brother.

C-grunt said:

Sig is claiming 10-12k rounds. No idea what magic steel they are using for their barrels.

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Like you, I’m dubious.

This is an over-bore cartridge. No way they get the same barrel life as an M4. Not even close. Not even if it’s chrome lined

That’s OK if this is a specialize mission specific weapon. Not OK if it’s standard issue to the troops

crestoncowboy said:

They may get 10k rounds of life. Isn't the acceptable accuracy of the m4 something like 7MOA. Ive read 5 and ive read 7. One could throw a bullet down a 2 inch schedule 40 pipe and dang near get 7 MOA.

Burned out would vary greatly based on your tolerance of accuracy degradation

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Mislepc for M4/M16 is 4 MOA.

C-grunt said:

Mislepc for M4/M16 is 4 MOA.

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Thats new. What is the "rebarrel" spec though

My 223 wssm has at least a 10k rounds barrel life. You won't be able to hit a fat bull in the rear from 30 paces.... but the barrel will be alive I suppose

Maybe it's a "subscription" based contract. Like HP printers and shaving razors. Give away the gun and make the profit on the consumables.