"Sniper Rifle" necessary for target shooting?

[Nightcrawler]

On Easter, I got to shoot a custom .300 Win Mag bolt rifle. It had a muzzle brake that really took a bite out of the kick, considering the rifle weighed about six pounds loaded. The recoil was modest; the concussion from the muzzle brake was not.

Anyway, it got me thinking. That rifle was really accurate, but had a thin barrel. But really, for simple target shooting, ringing steel gongs out to 400, 600, 800 meters even, do you NEED a heavy "sniper" barrel? Or does it really screw things up as your barrel heats up if you have a thin "sporter" barrel?

I'm not talking about competition long range shooting, where group sizes matter. I'm thinking more along the lines of seeing out to how far I can ding Correia's steel silhouette target. (I can put a whole 20 round mag into it, from the kneeling, with my 16" FAL/Aimpoint 2MOA, at two hundred yards. )

 

[Avenger29]

I think Carlos Hathcock and the other shooters in his era used what were basically hunting rifles with some accurizing work such as glass bedding and careful torqueing of the action screws. And they were taking it out to a thousand yards.

 

[JohnL2]

For simple targetshooting use whatever you like.
If you are not that into it DO NOT buy a super duper custom rig. It'll just sit in the closet. Waste.

I know, it's tempting. Man, last time at the range it was like guys showing off their cars for Cruise Night at the Dairy Queen. Some REALLY nice rigs.
Those guys were shooters.

 

[Nightcrawler]

That's the other thing. I'm not really looking at getting into hardcore sniper training type stuff. Maybe later, but I'm more interested in "just for fun" plinking, but at loooong ranges instead of short ranges.

I think a Savage rifle will probably fit the bill nicely. They have a nice selection of left-handed rifles, too.

 

[MilsurpShooter]

I don't think you'll hear any complaints about long thin barrels from any of the WWII Russian Snipers

 

[Geno]

I have personally owned light rifles that would place 5 shots into a tight little group that one questuioned if 5 rounds had trully been fired (Sako Finn Bear in .270 Win). I have had heavy rifles that there was no doubt that 5 rounds had been fired because they were allllllll over the page...as in it grouped about 8 MOA (Rem 700V in .223 Rem.) Go figure.

For my part, I am not about to expend $5,000.00 for a rifle. I get as much excitement out of firing my Mosins and SKSs. For me, it is more about values. If one has the extra money, by all means I do not judge you for buying a $50,000.00 custom rig. I don't. I buy what I can afford, and I have fun tinging the steel in the off-season, and dropping boar, deer, etc. for food during season.

Now, Re: how far you can hit the steel with a factory rifle, let's assume you have a 16"X20 steel target set to simulate a humanoide. Most factory firearms will group 2 MOA. Given such, you should be able to hit the steel reliably to not less than 800 yards, save for missed shots due to wind drift. If you have a 1 MOA accurate rifle, you should be able to strike steel to 1,600 yards save for drift. Your greater problem is going to be other factors than the rifle's accuracy...your trigger pull and steadiness, the trajectory that at those ranges is like chucking pumpkins, even with most magnums.

Good thread!! Thanks for starting it!

 

[Sniper X]

Sniper training consists of mostly things other than the actual shot. So considering sniper training is not necessary for just precision shooting at long and ultra long ranges. If you simply want ot shoot at very long ranges a sniper type rifle or SWS sniper weapons system may be best for you or you masy think about a typical BR or bench rest system. But truthfully, any very accurate rifle with good glass will give most shooters a better platform than they ca ever take advantage of. I'd suggest a Savage 10FPLE2 or similar for a rifle, and a good scoppe with mil dot reticle, a mil dot master, for long range training and you will be very pleased with the results. Just when you get the rifle, either lap or fire lap the barrel and clean and oil the action and it'll shoot rings around any standard sporter rifle made.

 

[Nightcrawler]

Here's the thing. I'm a sucker.

I know that a .308 is the best choice for casual long ranged shooting. The ballistics are well established, the ammo is cheap and plentiful, it's easy on the shooter and the barrel...

...but after shooting that .300, damned if I don't want a Win Mag. Too bad Savage's left-handed .300s aren't available with the heavy barrel.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

My 7mm Mag is wonderfully accurate and will do everything a $3k precision rifle will do in the accuracy department - for about all of three shots. After that, it will wander badly until it cools back down.

I think the main benefit of the heavy precision rifles is that they are designed for shooting. In most hunting, it is rare you'll fire more than three shots at a time - so what the barrel does after that isn't half as important as weight. In precision target shooting, you have to shoot to get good with the rifle - and you can't shoot while you are waiting for the barrel to cool. So those rifles will be designed to withstand heat issues better.

I think whether you can get by with the hunting rifle will depend on lot on how much shooting you plan to do.

CAVEAT: I know very little about precision rifles, so give this the same credence you would any other anonymous internet comment.

 

[USSR]

...I'm more interested in "just for fun" plinking, but at loooong ranges instead of short ranges.

Nightcrawler,

For long range plinking, it don't matter. You can walk your shots onto the target and have fun just knowing you can hit something at long range. However, if you ever decide to take a more serious route, I would suggest going with a heavier rifle with a heavier contour barrel and ditching the muzzle break. The added weight will greatly mitigate the recoil, as well as allow for more prolonged shooting sessions.

Don

 

[BigG]

... for simple target shooting, ringing steel gongs out to 400, 600, 800 meters even, do you NEED a heavy "sniper" barrel? Or does it really screw things up as your barrel heats up if you have a thin "sporter" barrel?

It all depends on the bbl. I was dubious at first but once I shot a Steyr with a lightweight bbl rapid fire and it would still do the same group in the same location I became a believer. The Steyr is made by hammering a piece of steel around a mandrel about six inches long, iirc, with rifling reverse engraved on it. When the hammering is done you have a long, straight rifled tube. I believe Steyr makes proper bbls but you have to pay for them. I believe that paying the price for a Steyr makes good sense. you get a proper weight straight bbl that can be used for other than bench rest. YMMV

Harry Pope who was a famous bbl maker years ago refused to straighten bbls, a common practice. He believed that once metal was bent it would always retain a memory and try to return to that set as you heated it. He would scrap bbls that did not come out straight as made. Most bbl makers straighten them as a rule and I believe that is at least one of the reasons why groups "walk."

Incidentally, Harry Pope rifles were known as prizewinners. I am not sure if the late Gale McMillan was of the same mind as Pope, but he was the most knowledgeable we've ever had on this forum, to my knowledge.

 

[whited]

I know that a .308 is the best choice for casual long ranged shooting.

O Rly ?

the ammo is cheap and plentiful

Not around here. I went to Wal Mart barf: ) and an Army surplus store
last weekend.

Not a SINGLE ROUND of any type of .308 at either store.

I was most displeased. Carry on.

 

[Heavy Metal Hero]

Just go with 7.62x54R and be done with it!

 

[R.H. Lee]

For your application, I'd definately stay away from skinny barrels. I just bought a .223 Wthby Vanguard in stainless steel and find that after 5-6 shots the barrel is too hot to touch, and it takes 5-8 minutes just to cool down. I enjoy 'gong plinking' from the bench at various distances so weight is not a factor. I think a Savage FP10 is the ticket for me.

 

[Medusa]

You could use a fluted barrel, to keep the weight down while having big surface area. But the barrel weight does depend on what you want to do with the rifle.

If you want to plink at greater ranges why not invest into the FAL you have and have it tweaked a bit, scope it (at least max 6x, maybe 3-9x) to make it a DMR. It should be good to at least 600 yards.

 

[Zak Smith]

I have shot some barrels until they were way too hot to grab, and they still held very good groups at long range. But I also know of guns - mostly hunting rifles - that start to open up and/or drift when they get warm. As things start to heat up, you need the same factors that keep the rifle accurate when cold, to not become problems when hot. Stress in the action or barrel come to mind particularly.

The thinnest bolt-rifle barrel I have is a medium palma, which is still 0.83 at the muzzle. This is the same profile that ships on the 308 26" AI-AW. The TRG-22/42 barrels also also pretty thin compared to the M24 profiles we're used to over here.

-z

 

[Afy]

You want a fun 300 Win Mag with a Fluted, Floated barrell... get an SHR 970.

However I "do" feel the recoil to be a little uncomfortable after about 30 shots.

To be fair I have only fired about 50 shots so far out of this rifle...

 

[slzy]

fwiw,i think when the svds came on line,the barrel was 1mm thicker.

 

[kaferhaus]

skinny barrels and sustained fire accuracy don't belong in the same paragraph.

if you want to shoot more than 3-5 shots in a row, you need a heavy barrel. Hunting contour barrels will start walking shots as soon as they get too hot to touch at the breech end.

There's good reason you'll never see a target rifle or sniper rifle with a skinny barrel.

If we could get away with using a 7-8lb rifle don't you think we'd be doing it?

My "light gun class" Long range bench rest rifle weighs just shy of 17lbs with the scope... it also has a muzzle break because it's more comfortable to shoot for long strings of fire that way.

No matter who made the barrel, a sporter weight barrel will start throwing shots in short order... this usually results in the shooter chasing his scope adjustments which of course puts the scope well off target once the barrel cools.

Trying to "walk" shots with a overheated barrel is an exercise in futility as each shot is going to move more than the last one and usually not even in the same direction.

 

[rangerruck]

nope. I've got a cz in 223, a marlin 917laminate, and an old marlin 81dl, that i would put down on a line with other dudes , anytime. they are that good. Sometimes you just get lucky, or you get some great old world craftsmanship, plus you hone your shooting skills, to the point where you can shoot one holers with stock equipment, at 100 yds. Heck, with a bit of tuning, a break in , and a piece of wadding from a used discarded 12 gauge shell, I took a 99 dollar youth model Rossi, and with a 3.9 tasco, shot a 1.5 inch group at 100 yards, with winnie 17hmr ammo. Rossi ain't known for it's benchrest qualities!!!

 

[rockstar.esq]

Whited : "I was most displeased. Carry on."

Dunno what to say to that, other than I've found some shops out of .22LR on occasion! As to the .308's relative merits as it pertains to long range shooting, I'd enjoy reading your arguments against it. Thus far mine has genuinely been a superb shooter and the cartridge seems to group consistently across a wide variance in ranges.

 

[Zak Smith]

Arguments for 308:

1. can shoot an approx 0.5 BC bullet at 2700-2900fps
2. very long barrel life
3. mild recoil
4. factory match ammunition available from many vendors, at many retail outlets
5. reloading easy due to multitude of great components and well-known and proven "recipes"

.. basically what Nightcrawler said.

To get a noticable step up in long-range performance, the costs associated with impinging on items #2-5 increase rapidly.

For example, if we compare a great LR 308 load to an "objective" LR load (300gr SMK fired from a 338 Lapua):

The 338:
* has 38% less wind drift at 1000 yards
* has 12% less drop at 1000 yards
* has 2.8x the energy at 1000 yards, but
* has 3.4x the recoil
* has approx 3-4x the dollar cost per round fired (not including barrel wear)
* has approx 35-50% the barrel life


All that said, you don't need a fancy-shmancy rifle to make long-range hits. As long as the bullet stays supersonic and you have some way to semi-accurately hold over using the scope, you should be able to hit targets at least as large in MOA as your 100-yard accuracy, 2, 3, 4 MOA, whatever.

rockstar.esq, hope to see you out there!

-z

 

[Nightcrawler]

I have a question that's irrelevant to my original question, but I'm curious. Since there are some very knowledgeable folks here, now's a good a time as any to ask.

How much of a role does downrange energy play for military snipers? It seems to me that a .308 bullet, 175 grains, moving at 1100 feet per second (way the heck out there) is little better than a pistol round. Is this one of the considerations for many militaries adopting more powerful cartridges?

 

[Jerry Morris]

Sniper Rifle? Isn't that what is in the hands of a truly well trained Sniper? In my hands, it is a mere accurate rifle. I can hit well at long range, but I am not a well trained Sniper.

A first class Sniper is much more than a good shot. Those Bozo's shooting things up around D.C. were mere pretenders and I could have taken them out with ease from outside their accuracy range. A true Sniper would have felt insulted to have been assigned the chore. It was only a Marksmans job.

I am so tired of over used buzz words.

Jerry

 

[sacp81170a]

A first class Sniper is much more than a good shot.

I agree, so much so that it seems like we should be looking for a better term than "sniper". Intel gathering, observation, fire direction, etc., etc., are all important parts of the job. Is there a better word than 'sniper'?