Bullet accuracy

The general information you saw was correct. Many bullet manufacturers, though, are improving their bullets every year. And the interbond information you heard would be correct 5 years ago, but not necessarily today. Today's bonded bullets have changed those issues by changing the alloy of copper used and adding additional copper layers which improves the BC and the "controlled expansion".

Thomasss said:

The general information you saw was correct. Many bullet manufacturers, though, are improving their bullets every year. And the interbond information you heard would be correct 5 years ago, but not necessarily today. Today's bonded bullets have changed those issues by changing the alloy of copper used and adding additional copper layers which improves the BC and the "controlled expansion".

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This is right but the only real published information I’ve been able to find is from Sierra. I don’t recall ever seeing what @AJC1 is asking for. I do seem to recall bonding jackets to soft lead cores started in self defense hollow points to improve penetration after jacket expansion.

In the various embodiments the core is more than swaged or mechanically molded to the jacket with pressure, and is bonded to the jacket. The preferred bonding process is soldering in which a preformed core is inserted into the jacket and heated so that the core bonds to the jacket. Flux can be introduced into the jacket to facilitate bonding of the core to the jacket. Other methods of bonding can also be used, including for example the use of adhesives.

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https://patents.google.com/patent/US20110056404
Flux or glue will not be good for accuracy.

Custom bullet makers may use vinegar to etch the inside of the jacket. This helps the lead core bond to the jacket on forming.
Another method is bead blasting bullet jackets on the inside. There is a patent.

If the core & jacket spin at different speeds, heat may cause the lead to become liquid. Accuracy would be poor, if the bullet even makes it to the target.

A good old read. http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?49336-Berger-bullet-failure-test Eric Stecker worked for Berger Bullets at the time.

Make your own bullets? http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?94910-Another-Bullet-Making-Thread-(lots-of-photos-amp-video)

AJC1 said:

Was watching a vortex nation video with the bullistician from Hornaday

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Reminds me about the huge break through they hyped a few years ago. When they found out their plastic bullet tips were melting as they went down range…

Might be worth it to see if you are the only one with the problem.

That said, I have found that bullets that work great on animals are not always the most accurate ones fired from a given rifle.

I've shot some accurate bonded bullets. Just my 2 cents. If you are looking for a bug hole, it doesn't matter what it is you have search for the magic bullet and load.

I have done comparison accuracy testing with plated vs jacketed bullets to include Speer TMJ which is thick plated bullet and more consistent jacketed bullets tended to produce greater accuracy over plated bullets.

FWIW ...

Atlanta Arms Elite 9mm 115 gr FMJ Match AMU is designed for extreme accuracy at 50 yards used by the Army Marksmanship Unit and the Marine Service Pistol team for service pistol matches - https://atlantaarms.com/products/elite-9mm-115gr-fmj-match-amu.html

AFAIK, 115 gr FMJ Match AMU has been made with jacketed bullets and not plated bullets.

Also, when Eley decided to manufacture centerfire match ammunition, they chose to go with RMR jacketed bullets and not plated bullets - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...or-their-new-line-of-match-ammunition.854750/

SSUSA review article of Eley match ammunition - https://www.ssusa.org/content/review-eley-9-mm-competition-ammunition/

Not all plated bullets are equal. To wit: the Speer GoldDots are electro plated but with a proprietary process and are double struck (swaging process to size and form the hollow point).

Many of the cheaper plated bullets are of such low quality that crimping will cause the plating to crack or blister. Sizing is also a crap shoot as it depends on the presized dieameter of the slug and final diameter which is dependent on the thickness of the plating.

I bought some Berrys 124g Plated hollow points. Couldn’t figure out why they were shooting 12” and keyholing at 25yds from a S&W PPC-9 6”. Load was 4.6gr of #231 with very little crimp.

Finally figured out it was because they were running .353” to .354”. Were labeled.356”.
Never have bought any more!

Currently RMR match grade jacketed bullets are unbeatable for price for performance.
I’m particularly fond of the MPR now called “Nukes” ias 115 and 124gr hollow points.

The only thing that exceeds them are the Federal HST’s, only available in loaded ammo at gargantuan prices!

Plated pistol bullets aren’t physically or functionally the same as bonded rifle bullets.

Bonded rifle bullets do not achieve the pinnacle of precision achieved by cup and core bullets - but lathe turned monometal bullets tend to truly be the most accurate bullets in the world.

Cores and jackets are not spinning at differential rates such the core, in any extent, is becoming liquid. Not at all.

jmorris said:

Reminds me about the huge break through they hyped a few years ago. When they found out their plastic bullet tips were melting as they went down range…

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Personally, I think the plastic tipped bullet craze is genius marketing that allows them to sell bullets for 2X the cost of 'normal' ones.
It's just a piece of plastic inserted into a hollow point... Give it a cool name, and somehow it doubles the value? lol

They are just HOLLOW POINTS. Sure, they give them varied jacket thickness and dimensions for various game, but the plastic is little more than genius marketing and decoration. Change my mind... lol

As for bullets... Standard affordable soft points work great in everything from 30-30 velocity, up to 270 and 20-06. No need to buy anything more expensive. Once you're into 7mm mag, 300 Mag, .223, or anything over 3000 fps or so... bonded bullets are the best bet. as the others are traveling too fast to stay together. I'm sure they are making a fortune on those as well, as they can't be THAT much more expensive to produce. As for the cool tipped hollow points... That's where the development is going right now, but if you shoot any 'standard' caliber in a standard velocity range... Plain ole' soft points (Hornady Interlock, Sierra Game King, Core-loct, etc) work just fine.

Anyway, my $0.02 on bullets. lol

n2omike said:

Standard affordable soft points work great in everything from 30-30 velocity, up to 270 and 30-06. No need to buy anything more expensive.

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In point of fact, at the velocities stated, "most" hunters and recreational shooters will be just fine with properly fitted and well-made quality cast bullets. There's nothing magical about a copper jacket in a .30-06 under 2500fps. How fast does a 170gr. bullet need to be going to put a hole in a piece of paper at 300yds?

n2omike said:

my $0.02 on bullets. lol

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I’d like a refund on the overall bad advice offered here.

n2omike said:

Personally, I think the plastic tipped bullet craze is genius marketing that allows them to sell bullets for 2X the cost of 'normal' ones.
It's just a piece of plastic inserted into a hollow point... Give it a cool name, and somehow it doubles the value?

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There are cheap tipped bullets and inexpensive tipped bullets. Many of the most expensive bullets on the market are NOT polymer tipped bullets. Some of the cheapest bullets in most classes are tipped bullets.

n2omike said:

They are just HOLLOW POINTS. Sure, they give them varied jacket thickness and dimensions for various game, but the plastic is little more than genius marketing and decoration. Change my mind... lol

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Actually do some shooting with various tipped bullets and your mind will change. Expansion for tipped bullets is not the same as that of similarly jacketed hollow points, both in reliability and expansionenetration ratio. BC consistency is not the same for tipped bullets and their equivalently produced hollow points.

n2omike said:

No need to buy anything more expensive. Once you're into 7mm mag, 300 Mag, .223, or anything over 3000 fps or so... bonded bullets are the best bet.

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The irony on this is hilarious.

Varminterror said:

Cores and jackets are not spinning at differential rates such the core, in any extent, is becoming liquid. Not at all.

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In Olden Times things were different. Newton (Charles, not Isaac) was driving 1920s cup and core soft points so hard that he found it necessary to have a wrap of paper as insulation between core and jacket to keep from melting the core and disintegrating the bullet. He also set a brad in the exposed lead of his soft points to stiffen them.

Varminterror said:

BC consistency is not the same for tipped bullets and their equivalently produced hollow points.

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The first ballistic shaped tipped bullet I know of was the Remington Bronze Point. It was not selected for target shooting and hunters loved or hated it depending on what expansion they happened to get.


Plated bullets are not chosen for accuracy, but I got lucky. Remington made a plated rifle bullet sold as the Powr Lokt. It is an ugly bullet, looks like they swaged the lead with a roughly notched hollow point and then plated it all over. But is is quite accurate in my .223 bolt action (They only made them in .224 and 6mm.) Not as accurate as SMK, but better (in my rifle) than other bullets, and much cheaper.

Will the bonded bullet shoot well? It may, you have to test it first.


Federal Fusion, a bonded bullet, I purchased a lot of pulled/seconds because they were cheap, and I am cheap!



shoots well in a pre WW2 M70 in 30-06 at 300 yards130 grain shot well in the 270 Win



they were tumbling by the time they got to 600 yards



Tumbling is not something the in print influencers ever talk about. But then, when do they shoot past 100 yards? This was something I knew was a 168 SMK problem at 1000 yards, but I had no idea other bullets tumbled. And they do, and no one is going to warn you about this. Regardless of the hype, you have to test those super bullets at distance, with the load you plan to use, to see if the things tumble. And that includes 308 190 gr SMK's!







Just because the bullet says "Match" does not mean it is stable at distance.

this pre 64 in 270 Win, has a new, match quality barrel installed, and it shot 150 grain Fed fusion’s well, but remember your training, three shot groups are the ultimate standard for accuracy and consistency. Of course this is statistical rubbish, but that’s what people believe because they read it. And it keeps gunwriters from having to spend too much money on ammunition, and too much time at the range. Unfortunately, the CMP target software does not take an average group size, for if it did, these group would be even smaller. Somehow.








this is why no intelligent influencer shoots ten shot groups, the group gets larger








still bonded bullets shot well out to 600 yards, mind you, I am shooting a hunting rifle with a rest.





My Ruger #1 liked the bonded bullets

Three shot group, the ultimate standard for accuracy and consistency




additional shots just muck up the illusion of control



One of the next five shots went wonky, so I am only showing the five shot group. Still, this 30 caliber bonded bullet shot well out to 600 yards



Are bonded bullets "match quality", probably not as none of the good target shooters I know are using them. But, if a bullet holds the NRA ten ring out to 600 yards, is that good enough for you? Can you hold the ten ring out to 600 yards with any bullet, match or magical? If not, then bonded bullets are probably a good bullet for you.

Jim Watson said:

In Olden Times things were different. Newton (Charles, not Isaac) was driving 1920s cup and core soft points so hard that he found it necessary to have a wrap of paper as insulation between core and jacket to keep from melting the core and disintegrating the bullet. He also set a brad in the exposed lead of his soft points to stiffen them.

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We’ve learned that a lot of things we thought were so a hundred years ago just ain’t…

Varminterror said:

I’d like a refund on the overall bad advice offered here.

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You can kiss my...
What do you think the plastic tip fits into? Yup... a hollow cavity... which by any other name is a hollow point.
What exact magical function do you believe that piece of plastic does??? Aerodynamics? If that was the case, you'd see them in match bullets... but you don't.
They are highly developed HOLLOW POINTS.

This being said, are all hollow points equal? Are they all designed to explode on impact? NO. Many early ones were... but their function will depend on their construction. They are not all thin jacketed bombs with huge cavities up front that self destruct on impact.

What do YOU believe would happen if a person removed the plastic decoration off the front of these tipped bullets? Do you believe they would still function as designed? Of course they would. The plastic tip is an ingenious marketing gimmick. The visual impact of the cool tip along with a fancy name makes people want to buy them.

I also stated that most of the DEVELOPMENT in new bullets is with these modern day, plastic tipped hollow points. They are highly developed hollow points. Simple as that... and they sell for a lot more money than the bullets they replace.

As for my statement regarding using regular soft points in traditional HUNTING cartridges. NOTHING wrong with Hornady Interlocks, Remington Core Loct, Sierra Game King, etc... as long as you don't drive them too fast. Drive them too fast, and they don't hold together. Shoot them too slow and they don't expand like they would in their velocity sweet spot.

If you are shooting much over 3000 fps on larger game and need penetration, bonded bullets are where it's at.

I stand by my statements. More game has been killed with soft points than anything. If you're hog hunting with something meager/slow like a 300 Blackout, or some other larger caliber designed to fit in an AR15, you'll likely need some sort of hollow point to get good expansion. People love the 120 grain SST (super shock tip) in those. If you're hunting with an AR10 chambered in .308, the standard Interlocks (soft points) are more than up for the challenge.

n2omike said:

Aerodynamics? If that was the case, you'd see them in match bullets... but you don't.

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You are exceptionally ignorant, and unfortunately confident in it…

A great number of highly successful - industry leading - match bullets are tipped bullets.

The polymer tipped Cutting Edge Laser is the most used bullet in Extreme Long Range competition.

The polymer tipped Hornady ELD and the newer A-Tip are the second most used bullets in Precision Rifle Competition.

A plugged hole isn’t a hole. Claiming something is filled yet remains hollow is talking out of both sides of your exceptionally ignorant mouth.

But the Cutting Edge bullets are lathe turned.
And before you get in too deep on that Stuff In A Hole debate, I see in their catalog:


.264/6.5mm 125gr Lazer-Tipped Hollow Point - 50ct

n2omike said:

What do YOU believe would happen if a person removed the plastic decoration off the front of these tipped bullets? Do you believe they would still function as designed? Of course they would.

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As an innocent spectator of your little urination competition and perhaps unwisely risking getting caught in the crossfire, I took note of this statement the most. Mainly because it is an assertion with nothing to substantiate it. I'd be more inclined to believe you if you had some data, or better if you had de-tipped some bullets and shot them to show the results. Absent that...

My experience is HUNTING.
Regarding bullet performance, the different colored plastic tips are mostly marketing based. They could build the exact same game performance into a non-tipped bullet. It would just be harder to sell for the same profit as the tipped ones... as they would look just like the older bullets.

If you HUNT medium to large game with a 270, 280, 30-06 or any other 'standard' velocity rifle, there is little to be gained from buying a boutique bullet. The standard soft point from your favorite maker works great. If you're shooting faster than their sweet spot, a bonded bullet may be required to keep it together. If you are shooting too slow, a developed hollow point (with or without the plastic tip), a thinner jacketed soft point or something designed to work at those speeds will work best.

Most match bullets I've seen have been hollow points. Maybe they've started inserting plastic tips in those as well. I mean, if a $0.01 piece of plastic allows them to make an extra dime on every bullet... why not.

I'm coming from the perspective of a HUNTER. If you want to use a standard caliber such as a 270, 30-06, .308... or something else in the 2500-2900 fps range, cheap soft points work great. If you want to shoot 3100+ fps, a bonded bullet is a good investment. If you want to shoot something slow like a 300 BO or even 7.62x39, you'll need something designed to work at lower velocity. Personally, I choose the old standards in regular calibers. They simply WORK, as bullets have been refined to do so for decades.

Do I hold a grudge against the bullet manufacturers for developing these tipped bullets? Not at all. Can't blame them. It's an easy way to increase their profits. It's an attention getting way for them to showcase their latest products. They get people's attention a lot more than something that looks just like their prior bullets. If I were going to hunt with a 300 Blackout, I'd be a customer. If I were to hunt medium to large game with something that shot really fast, I'd buy a bonded or monolithic bullet.

As for the benchrest guys looking for that last 0.01 minute of angle... Good luck with that.

barnfrog said:

As an innocent spectator of your little urination competition and perhaps unwisely risking getting caught in the crossfire, I took note of this statement the most. Mainly because it is an assertion with nothing to substantiate it. I'd be more inclined to believe you if you had some data, or better if you had de-tipped some bullets and shot them to show the results. Absent that...
View attachment 1084372

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I'd LOVE to see that test. Personally, I think the plastic tip is just along for the ride... and it's the design of the bullet that truly matters.
Curious if any tests are out there?

You’re whining about pricing - which was incorrect, and then telling lies about ballistics and BS about expansion performance… then recommending MORE EXPENSIVE bullets as alternatives… foolish and ignorant…

Varminterror said:

You’re whining about pricing - which was incorrect, and then telling lies about ballistics and BS about expansion performance… then recommending MORE EXPENSIVE bullets as alternatives… foolish and ignorant…

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Not whining about pricing. They can charge what they want. I'll buy standard bullets and shoot them out of standard cartridges.
Where am I recommending a more expensive bullet? For hunting medium to large game with high velocity, bonded or mono bullets are necessary for bullet integrity. That's not a recommendation. That's a fact. The bullet has to fit the velocity. If you choose something extremely fast or slow, choose the bullet accordingly. If you hunt with a 'standard' cartridge as mentioned above, regular soft points work just fine.

Plastic tipped bullets visually set themselves apart. This is where their latest development has taken place... as they are visually an easier sell.

I'm outta' here. I need to go to the garage and get some work done.