Lil'Gun and Your Forcing Cone?

Yes

This seems to be a "thing", but researching actual verifiable case data is difficult. The problem purportedly stems from the high burn temps Lil'gun exposes steel to. I see numerous posts across the web alluding to the phenomenon, along with reposted "quotes" from Bob Baker of Freedom Arms stating that they did side by side comparisons (including post-firing barrel sectioning) of H110 and Lil'gun and observed visible erosion from Lil'gun loads where the H110 loads did not. But I can't find any direct links to Bob Baker's actual quote or any other verifiable documentation. Not saying it doesn't exist, but I am having no luck turning it up.

LaneP said:

I see numerous posts across the web alluding to the phenomenon, along with reposted "quotes" from Bob Baker of Freedom Arms stating that they did side by side comparisons (including post-firing barrel sectioning) of H110 and Lil'gun and observed visible erosion from Lil'gun loads where the H110 loads did not. But I can't find any direct links to Bob Baker's actual quote or any other verifiable documentation.

Click to expand...

I wonder how old the information is.

I remember looking for information on this Aimpoint RDS for bows, and there was none online...

...the only reason we could think of explaining that was that it was made and discontinued before the Internet was mainstream

Perhaps a scan from an old magazine, if anybody could find it...

Bob Bakers comment from a quote in an older post from the Ruger Forum.
https://www.rugerforum.net/threads/lil-gun-erosion-in-rifles.360363/
Direct links seem to all be dead.

"We have seen numerous barrels damaged by using Lil Gun. According to customers, some had as few as 30 rounds using Lil Gun through them, some had several hundred. Before we figured out what was happening one customer had sent his gun in for a new barrel. Then 600 rounds later it came back for another new barrel.

A couple years ago we did a test with a M83, .357 Mag. using Hornady 180 gr. bullets. We loaded 50 rds. of three different loads. One was a heavy H-110 load and the other two both used Lil Gun in different quantities.

We fired the H-110 loads first, then cut off the threaded end of the barrel. Rethreaded the barrel and shot one of the Lil Gun loads then rethreaded the barrel and shot the last Lil Gun load.

We found even the light load of Lil Gun caused the gun to get extremely hot. The heavy Lil Gun load had the gun so hot the only place we could touch the gun was on the grips and they were very hot.

Under magnification the surface appeared to have heated to a point of flowing using the Lil Gun loads and the heavy load was worse than the light load. This is probably due to Lil Gun having about 10% more nitro glycerin in it than H-110.
Yes it applies to the .475 also. I intentionally ran the tests with a cartridge that is less pressure than the 454 just to make sure.

I have also heard of problems with rifles but I haven't tried to verify it by running my own tests."

jski said:

I've read some things about Lil'Gun being "hard on your forcing cone"? What's up with this? Is it any "harder on your forcing cone" than H110?

Click to expand...

Myth. This entire story started with one guy (who had some credibility because of his position in the industry), who never was able to show conclusive proof, and also had a beef with Hodgdon. I don't have a dog in this race, I don't use it, but I have, and it had it's uses for me, but there's better stuff out there....but if you actually deep dive this, EVERY SINGLE POST/CLAIM/COMMENT on the internet, across every forum, all come back to that one single claim. Lil Gun is no more destructive or harder on guns than any other slow buring magnum type powder if you use it to feed your gun a steady diet of hot loads. Plus, since it's become one of the most popular AR powders for non-standard calibers (50 BW, 300BLK, few others), if it was hot enough to gas cut and erode a revolver forcing cone.........we'd probably be hearing horror stories from that crowd. Now, I'm perfectly willing to change my position.....just come to me with something other than that single individual's claim. Something more than "I heard..." or "So and So said...". Otherwise, in my mind, this is just another example of people spreading a fairy tell and propagating it until it takes on a life of it's own.

It appears Lil'gun is also used in some of the Buffalo Bore magnum ammo.

Can't comment on forcing cone erosion with Lil Gun but after using several pounds of it in my single shot 22 Hornet over the past few years there is no measurable difference in rate of throat erosion of the rifle compared to several other propellants I have used over the earlier years. I get better accuracy and more speed with it so not going to fix what isn't broken.

EricBu said:

Lil Gun is no more destructive or harder on guns than any other slow buring magnum type powder if you use it to feed your gun a steady diet of hot loads. Plus, since it's become one of the most popular AR powders for non-standard calibers (50 BW, 300BLK, few others), if it was hot enough to gas cut and erode a revolver forcing cone.........we'd probably be hearing horror stories from that crowd.

Click to expand...

I understand what your saying about a single point of reference for this statement about Li'll gun. Especially since all the links are now mysteriously dead.
That makes me wonder also.
I agree, you would think if burned that hot to damage forcing cones, that Semi-Auto rifles would be seeing barrel erosion prematurely.

Didn't see a single post on that happening. I search it back to 2002, as far as I could go.

I don't have a dog in this fight either, I could care less because I don't use it.

I had read the damage wah caused by gas cutting. Supposedly Lil Gun burned much hotter than other powders and in heavy loads eroded the forcing cone and top strap. My opinion; probably internet wisdom...

I have not used Lil'gun in my revolvers, I like it in 300 BO and 450 Bushmaster. That said I have had Titegroup (also a double base powder like Li'gun) cut the top strap of my 627 slightly when running really hot loads of Titegroup. The double base powders burn hotter and are more likely to cause erosion problems.

Here's where a bomb calorimeter comes in handy!

Probably the same people that think tightgroup runs to hot and causes problems... wait that's like 50% of people.... flame front temperature is directly related to the percentage of nitro used. The higher the flame front temperature the more heat damage done to the firing weapon... this is not rocket science.

AJC1 said:

Probably the same people that think tightgroup runs to hot and causes problems... wait that's like 50% of people.... flame front temperature is directly related to the percentage of nitro used. The higher the flame front temperature the more heat damage done to the firing weapon... this is not rocket science.

Click to expand...

But it is rocket science...
I don't know either way. On barrel erosion.
I do know it stomps on H110 with heavy for caliber bullets. It's just as accurate as H110. But I like H110. So I use it.

Bfh_auto said:

But it is rocket science...
I don't know either way. On barrel erosion.
I do know it stomps on H110 with heavy for caliber bullets. It's just as accurate as H110. But I like H110. So I use it.

Click to expand...

I would muse it's thermal dynamics but hay I'm just a dummy with a hs education who guarded nukes for 23 years...

I've heard this repeatedly. I don't know honestly.
My gunsmith is in his late 70s or early 80s and recommended lil gun for 454 casull as he said I'd get higher velocity with less pressure . he's a very smart and well informed guy but he might also hope I damage my guns so he can fix them (not really but it's funny ). I think there could be something to it but I'm content with h110 and I use a lot of it. I'm also familiar with h110s characteristics and how best to use it. I lost the will to push any cartridge beyond what's normal so if I want more power I don't try to reinvent the wheel, I just get an appropriate firearm. I used to like nuclear 45 colt loads but I finally just got some 454 casulls , if I want more power than that I'll step up to 460 magnum , if I want more then that I'll get there if I need to.

Reality is, I don't have a realistic need for even the 454 so trying to squeek an extra hundred or so fps out of it isn't needed. I like things that have been around long enough for other folks to test it and determine if there's an issue. To me, there's no problem with lil gun but I just don't need another powder to do almost the same thing I can accomplish with h110. I am interested in this though and would love to see if someone has actual real evidence of damage caused by lil gun.

Obturation said:

I've heard this repeatedly. I don't know honestly.
My gunsmith is in his late 70s or early 80s and recommended lil gun for 454 casull as he said I'd get higher velocity with less pressure . he's a very smart and well informed guy but he might also hope I damage my guns so he can fix them (not really but it's funny ). I think there could be something to it but I'm content with h110 and I use a lot of it. I'm also familiar with h110s characteristics and how best to use it. I lost the will to push any cartridge beyond what's normal so if I want more power I don't try to reinvent the wheel, I just get an appropriate firearm. I used to like nuclear 45 colt loads but I finally just got some 454 casulls , if I want more power than that I'll step up to 460 magnum , if I want more then that I'll get there if I need to.

Reality is, I don't have a realistic need for even the 454 so trying to squeek an extra hundred or so fps out of it isn't needed. I like things that have been around long enough for other folks to test it and determine if there's an issue. To me, there's no problem with lil gun but I just don't need another powder to do almost the same thing I can accomplish with h110. I am interested in this though and would love to see if someone has actual real evidence of damage caused by lil gun.

Click to expand...

Saying the powder on its own will damage a gun with no other factors is just silly. Damage is normally a series of bad decisions.... the easy example is very slow powder and very lite bullets causing top strap flame cutting. This combination also was claimed to cause forcing cone damage in a few cases. Using a heavier bullet seemed to reduce most problems.... if a gun needs repair in 100 rounds or less, some one was real stupid or there was a material problem. I have no issues with tg or LG. I don't mag dump or push the edge of the envelope....

As an interesting side note, lil gun at hodgdons max load for a 158 jsp 357 magnum will not reliably cycle my Coonan 1911, but will chrony at nearly 1800 fps. Just didn't generate enough pressure to fully cycle the slide. Well below max with H110 cycles 100%, but IIRC 1500 fps or so. I'd have to check those numbers, but I recall being flat amazed at the velocity lil gun produced, but the whole non function thing was a bit of a show stopper. I think I still have a big jug, prolly 3/4 full... anybody who wants to drive to Sierra Vista AZ is welcome to it.

EricBu said:

As an interesting side note, lil gun at hodgdons max load for a 158 jsp 357 magnum will not reliably cycle my Coonan 1911, but will chrony at nearly 1800 fps. Just didn't generate enough pressure to fully cycle the slide. Well below max with H110 cycles 100%, but IIRC 1500 fps or so. I'd have to check those numbers, but I recall being flat amazed at the velocity lil gun produced, but the whole non function thing was a bit of a show stopper. I think I still have a big jug, prolly 3/4 full... anybody who wants to drive to Sierra Vista AZ is welcome to it.

Click to expand...

If I drive 10 to my mom's in san Diego next month that would be real tempting....

AJC1 said:

If I drive 10 to my mom's in san Diego next month that would be real tempting....

Click to expand...

PM if your interested, we'll make it happen. I might have some other stuff too. I have an insurance problem regarding powder storage right now. Have to let go of stuff I'm not going to use. I'm about 25 minutes from 10.

In my experience running top end cast loads in my 686, yes it does. I still shoot it but not as much as I did when the forcing cone looked relatively new.