A question for the Old Guards in reloading.

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KansasTrapper77 said:
My uncle and I cleared some trees to get a 1000 yard range
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Don’t let yourself get axle wrapped by the following common sentiments:

1) “1000 yards is a long ways” - implying the road to achieve it is incomprehensibly challenging. You saw above here what @South Prairie Jim is using to shoot exceptionally small groups in long range 600 and 1000 yard Benchrest competition. I’m shooting PRS with little to no case prep, using no gauges whatsoever, punching groups in the 1’s, 2’s, and 3’s, and hanging onto our half MOA targets at the common 400-700yrd range and 3/4-1moa targets out past 1000 - I have to load in higher volume than a Benchrest shooter, and I don’t need the same precision, so I spend more for faster gear and tolerate a little looser groups. Equally, the skill isn’t as mystical as folks try to make it seem - I stick young kids behind my rifles all of the time and walk them out to 1,000 yards on targets smaller than 2moa, and they’re not sticking bullets in the dirt.

2) “Measuring and gauging and indicating to the nearest half billionth of a molecule will make better ammo.” - dudes have been setting long range benchrest and f class records for a long, long time with THROWN charges. I love my dispenser which cranks out to the nearest kernel, but it doesn’t make my ammo any more precise. I was mislead into mic’ing and measuring and trimming and uniforming everything… I can press on a Lee press with Hornady dies, dispensing powder on a Chargemaster and punch out ammo which shoots as small as my Redding dies on a Forster Co-ax and charges thrown to the nearest kernel with an FX-120i. Not as fast, and with less control, but still shooting small. Simple gear sets can shoot small.
 
Varminterror said:
1) “1000 yards is a long ways” - implying the road to achieve it is incomprehensibly challenging.
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Oh we’re down for the challenge, with some regularity we land groups on a 2’ x 4’ target with grandma’s old .303 with irons.

I’m down for using simple tools to make good ammo. This is why I asked though I didn’t want to buy something outrageously expensive thinking it would make me better. I know the RCBS Chargemasters are pricey and not necessary. But I want one. It starts to drag when you hand trickle 100 rounds.

I’ll probably be shooting 4 cartridges at 1000 yards. .243, 30-06, .303 Brit, and 45-70. With .303 and .243 being the most used at those ranges. .303 because we plan on shooting it in CMP matches so it’s just fun to play with. And .243 because it’s kinda my father and I’s newly adopted target gun, because my grandfather handed down his .243 to me last year.

.30-06 will see some 1000 yard time but not as much because of the larger recoil. .45-70….I kinda slap those together with cheap lead bullets, IMR 4198, and belly button lint to throw through my Buffalo gun. It amuses me you can almost get up and walk around before the bullet impacts.
 
KansasTrapper77 said:
I know the RCBS Chargemasters are pricey and not necessary. But I want one.
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And this is what makes questions like this really hard to answer. Want vs. need.

Sounds like you're already pretty well dialed in and handloading good stuff.
KansasTrapper77 said:
.303 because we plan on shooting it in CMP matches so it’s just fun to play with.
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I did this for a few years at an NRA range in Brevard County. .303 and .30-06. Made with (ta-da!) LEE LOADERS!
index.php

Tedious? Yeah, sort of. But they're great for relieving stress. :)
 
KansasTrapper77 said:
I know the RCBS Chargemasters are pricey and not necessary. But I want one. It starts to drag when you hand trickle 100 rounds.
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They are not that high end of an item, if harbor freight sold them by the millions, they would cost $29.99 on perpetual sale.

I really wish they would share their parameters as I would really like to turn off the “auto zero” feature.



I am not a huge fan of things changing on their own when consistency (keeping things from changing) is my goal.

How much variation are you getting in your volume thrown charges?
 
I’ve never been brave enough to throw and put it straight into the case. I’ve ALWAYS trickled charges.

But I came here to hear the good the bad the ugly about equipment specifically from people who have been using awhile.
 
And that gets me to the point of my first post. If you don’t try anything else, all you will know is what you are doing now.

Imagine if for a second, you purchased your first powder measure tomorrow and tested it with the powders you use, at the charge weights you need and found it to be as consistent as your trickled charges? That might be a huge disappointment if you have been wasting time for years doing unnecessary things. Could be a huge relief if you just started and hate how slow your process is and would like to improve it.

I am not saying that will be the case but you don’t know, what you don’t know.
 
KT77, earlier you mentioned an RCBS beam scale your Grandfather gave you. What scale is that? If it's a 10-10 in good shape, you're in. Those work. I've had my RCBS/Ohaus 10-10 since 1978 and it still works perfectly. I'll chime in later with some ideas for your handloading endeaver.
 
Varminterror said:
Electronic scales and balances are used in processes far more critical and far more demanding than reloading, with higher stakes, and with highly documented performance metrics for reliability and precision
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Agreed . But, not a $14 crappy Chinese electronic scale. And too many folks (beginners mostly) use a cheap scale.

Look, I reloaded for years without a scale. I used Lee scoops, and loaded plenty.

As I progressed over the decades - I think I can call myself a handloader now - I have changed my ways.

I still use a 5-0-5, having graduated from a 5-0-2. I'm happy with it. If you want to use am electronic scale, have at it. I just cannot recommend one to a beginner.
 
The electronic scale I’m looking at is made in Taiwan. So at least its not Chinese crap. And it’s not like I’m going to throw the 505 away. I’ll just have two scales. I like comparing.
 
KansasTrapper77 said:
The electronic scale I’m looking at is made in Taiwan. So at least its not Chinese crap. And it’s not like I’m going to throw the 505 away. I’ll just have two scales. I like comparing.
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Darn! I was hoping you'd send it to me. :) Sort of a pay-it-forward gift to an old timer who can't see 1000 yards anymore, let alone hit a fly in flight at half a mile like some of our more talented breathren.
 
KT77, compared to some here, I'm a pretty spartan handloader, even tho I've been at it since '77. RCBS Rock Chukar, dial calipers, powder trickler, carbide dies for handgun loads, case trimmer of sorts, primer pocket cleaner[L-S], LED lighting. There are other items that have been mentioned and you'll work yourself thru this. Can't forget manuals. Loading blocks, simple things. I'll be loading up some .45 Colt here when it cools off a bit. Need to ask? Ask away.
 
Varminterror said:
Checking concentricity is wholly a waste of time and money - even for shooting EXCEPTIONALLY small groups.
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We're going to have to disagree on that one, for shooting the tiniest groups all the time concentric ammo will win out. Can you shoot some great groups with ammo that has .003 run out? Can you hit a silhouette at 1K with them? Sure you can, but if won't hang in there with otherwise identical but straight rounds in the long run.
 
Let’s calibrate a bit here:

Checking concentricity as a means of defining and mitigating process-induced defects is a different animal than sorting and culling ammo by concentricity - or especially the foolhardy Hornady screw jack concentricity corrector. If he evolves into shooting 600/1000 BR, then he’ll quickly become aware of the differentiated demands of the exceptionally elite precision it requires - but there’s a high speed 6 lane super highway between “I’m a new reloader” and “I can reliably hit 1-2moa targets at 1,000yrds” before he reaches the 1% of the 1% where benchrest voodoo factors into his calculus. Big knobs and small knobs… he’s still trying to turn on the radio…

What’s easier to tell a newbie: buy Redding or whidden dies and a Forster Co-ax, load Lapua brass and Berger bullets, and your ammo will be reliably concentric to hit your big steel targets at 1000yrds, or tell them, buy a concentricity gauge and figure it out…? What do we gain by pretending it’s a hard-fought pilgrimage to reach the altar of long range, and discouraging them from going to the range and trying it?
 
I've been reloading for over 50 years . One of the best , simplest and most accurate ways to dispense powder is with a simple powder scoop . Just like the one that comes with a set of Lee Dies .
I also make my own scoops to scoop a specific amount . A fired case , #12 copper wire handle , adjust the case to scoop the charge you want . It's safe and fool proof and after you practice your scooping technique about the most accurate way to dispense powder .
What I like is I see the powder in the scoop , if it doesn't look right I dump the powder and re-scoop and level ... scoop of powder goes into empty case ... I can double check all cases ... no missed cases no double charges ... start bullet in each case , checking the powder level as you go ...
Not only is it an accurate way to dispense powder it's very safe .
It's very OK to get Anal and OCD about getting powder in cases ... no powder is just as dangerous as a double charge ... scoops let me see the powder all the time .
Don't bet your life on electronic gizmo's . For a powder scale get a RCBS 5-0-5 Beam Scale ...
Trust me on this ...50 years experience.
Gary
 
GeoDudeFlorida said:
And this is what makes questions like this really hard to answer. Want vs. need.

Sounds like you're already pretty well dialed in and handloading good stuff.

I did this for a few years at an NRA range in Brevard County. .303 and .30-06. Made with (ta-da!) LEE LOADERS!
index.php

Tedious? Yeah, sort of. But they're great for relieving stress. :)
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what are those 2 Loaders to the right?
 
I think consentrisity tools should be a short term rental not a forever purchase. Check your process and return it. Once you know your gear and process is good the value goes to zero. I liken that tool to the ultra high precision levels for truing up a lathe. Not exactly an every day tool. Now if your in the precision tool industry, making deliveries, or in the die making business your definitely the exception.
 
I did not see any mention of what calibers you plan to reload or quantitys you will be loading, but getting started keep it simple. If you plan to load 20 rounds of 30-30 a month or a 1000 rounds of 9mm a week you will need different equipment. To really learn the art of reloading start out doing everything the hard way. Use the priming tool on the press. Get a balance beam scale and a set of Lee powder dippers. A couple of loading blocks, a powder funnel, some way to lube the brass and start loading. Upgrade your equipment as you go. Use the KISS system and have fun. IF YOU CAN'T HAVE FUN DON'T DO IT.
Just to let others know that I am not the complete simpleton that I may sound. I have been reloading for 55 years. Owned reloading stores in 2 states. Now retired. At one time I loaded 86 different calibers. Still have 23000 jacketed bullets on hand. My number 1 press (out of 7) is a Bonanza B2.
 
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