Putting to rest the myth of the "Cowboy Carry": Colt + S&W recommended carry w/all 6 chambers loaded

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Double Naught Spy said:
NONE of the sources you cite actually talk about behavior in the Old West. This is a monumental problem with your argument. You have made a connection that you didn't justify.

So you are off to a good start with some background research. Now go find the actual primary sources with the cowboy and Old West pioneer interviews where they talk specifically about how they loaded their weapons. Then come back and share with us what you find, but understand that just because some people did something, doesn't mean everyone else did or didn't. Proving a negative, which is what you are trying to do, is exceptionally difficult, some people would say that it is impossible. Good luck.
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0*E1eNateTiDThGcYI.jpg

But since you insist:

very-clear.jpg download3.jpg
SW-model-3.jpg download2.jpg


And oh, I also forgot to include the original colt boxed-set packaging in my first post too.
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gwpercle said:
You can lead an ignorant man to the truth but chances are he's not going to believe you !
Gary
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Gary, you must've been on to something here!


By the way, if any of you gentlemen would like to post any of that primary source evidence that documents that the cowboy carry DID occur before 1890 (or even 1899), I think many of us on this forum would sincerely appreciate that. Concrete evidence is always welcome when discussing historical facts.
 
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a more modern take on this issue: https://ruger-docs.s3.amazonaws.com/_manuals/blackhawk-pre1973.pdf even the manual for the new model blackhawk states that leaving the hammer down on an empty cylinder is the safest way to carry any revolver (page 32 of the new manual).

i think the "hammer down on an empty chamber" method was used but by a small minority as alluded to by the wyatt earp post above.

so goes our current litigious society,

murf
 
When did Colt and Ruger get nervous?
It is commonly said that 1973 introduction of the New Model Ruger was driven by lawsuits for accidental discharge due to not following modern instructions for the Old Model.
I know at one time Colt was wire tying SAA hammers so you would not be tempted to cock a gun they were promoting as a collectable.

My Dad was nervous, he carried his Colt Police Positive Special .32-20 with an empty chamber

BigBlue 94 said:
Then why do we have the term transfer bar?
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A design by Iver Johnson with advertisements "Hammer The Hammer' and since adopted by Colt, Ruger, and others.

sleepysquirrel2 said:
I own several revolvers and rifles made in the 1880's. Some even have the year of manufacture stamped on them.
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Which are those? I see a lot of old guns with patent dates, but no US made firearms with time of manufacture. Lugers and Mausers, sure.

Carl N. Brown said:
You load one, skip one, load four, raise the hammer from load notch to full cock and lower it over the skipped, empty chamber.
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I learned that one from Skeeter Skelton but when shooting CAS I didn't do it, although I was frequently instructed at the loading table.
I had seen too many people discover a high primer or burred rim when their cylinder rotation dragged while shooting on the clock.
So I loaded, rolled the cylinder to check for free rotation, then aligned the empty.


The period pictures are interesting, although I would not attach any importance to at least the last two guys with big shiny revolvers stuck loosely through narrow belts, one along with a naked blade. Obviously a studio shot. The others are too, but they look more realistic.
 
Howdy

I thought I would chime in on this one, as many of you know I have some strong opinions on this matter.

I have no first hand knowledge of how 'cowboys' (let's be clear here, the Colt Single Action Army was an expensive gun, and not a whole lot of 'cowboys' would have been able to afford one) loaded their revolvers, whether they loaded five or six.

I can't put my finger on it right now, but I have read of an incident where Wyatt Earp's revolver slipped from his pocket while he was gambling, and it fired when it hit the floor.

I don't know one end of a horse from the other, but I do know it is common practice to flip one stirrup up onto the saddle while cinching the saddle, then the stirrup is lowered so the rider can mount the saddle. Elmer Keith related an incident where a friend of his was saddling his horse, and the stirrup fell onto the hammer of his holstered Colt. The Colt discharged, the bullet struck the man in the leg, and he died of blood loss.

Ruger completely redesigned their line of revolvers in the early 1970s to include transfer bars after loosing more than one expensive lawsuit from shooters injured by revolvers that had discharged when dropped. The revolvers had been loaded with six rounds.



The only historical document I can point to is this reprint of a manual on inspection and operation of Army revolvers and Gatling Guns, that was originally published in 1875.

pntATUaaj.jpg




Yes, this manual indeed says to load all six chambers, and lower the hammer to the 'safety notch'.

pmdmB39ij.jpg




Now, let's get to what I do know. I have posted this photo many times. These are the lockwork parts of a 2nd Generation Colt. The upper arrow is pointing to the so called 'safety cock' notch on the hammer, the lower arrow is pointing to the sear at the tip of the trigger. For those of you who have not been inside a Colt, when the hammer is cocked to the 'safety position' the sear rests in the 'safety cock' notch. Look how thin the sear is. It would not take much of a blow to the hammer spur to shear off the tip of the trigger, allowing the hammer to fall with the force of the blow onto the primer of a cartridge. This could easily be enough force to fire a cartridge.

pl7bdIs8j.jpg




Now let's look at the parts of a 1st Generation Colt. This one happens to be a Bisley Model that shipped in 1909. Again, look how thin the sear is. Again, it would not take much force to shear it off.

pn3ynXZBj.jpg




While we're at it, let's take a look at the parts inside one of the old Three Screw Rugers, that predated the redesign which included transfer bars. Again, look how thin the sear is and how it would not take too much force to shear it off. Which is why Ruger lost the lawsuits.

poKNZCOgj.jpg




Now let's look at Smith and Wesson single action revolvers.

I have a number of antique Smith and Wesson revolvers, but these are the only ones with a rebounding hammer.

Top to bottom in this photo is a New Model Number Three that shipped in 1882. Directly below it is a 38 Single Action 3rd Model. I do not have a shipping date for it, but I do know it was refinished at the factory in 1937.

pmjaWPQ2j.jpg




This is a 32 Single Action, with box, that shipped in 1887. As stated on the box it has a rebounding hammer.

pn8aSIGPj.jpg




Let's take a look inside the New Model Number Three. In this photo the hammer is at full cock.

pnZzkCdPj.jpg




This is the position of the hammer at the moment a cartridge fires. The sear is trying to rock the hammer back, and I am holding the hammer all the way forward with my thumb.

pmZOl6NCj.jpg




The hammer is in the half cock position in this photo. The hammer must be in this position in order to reload. Notice the slot at the top of the hammer has cleared the step at the bottom of the latch. The latch cannot be opened to load or unload the revolver unless the hammer is in this position.

pn4dtJUGj.jpg




This is the most important photo for this discussion. The hammer has rebounded, rotated back slightly by the camming action of the sear. This is the normal position of the hammer. Look at how tiny the notch is on the hammer where the sear is resting. Also, look at how tiny the sear itself is. I have fired this revolver many times. I would not dream of leaving the hammer in this position with a live round under the hammer. It would not take much of a blow to the hammer to shear off that tiny interface between the sear and the hammer, allowing the revolver to discharge.

pm5NVXCFj.jpg




I bought this 2nd Generation Colt a few years ago. It left the factory in 1973. It came with the box and the original owner's manual.

pmRYoSQxj.jpg




I took a couple of photos of the owner's manual.

poPoGyccj.jpg

pnGhhw8ej.jpg




I zoomed in on the paragraph about the 'Safe Position"

pnyjQGulj.jpg




So, you can call it a myth if you want, and I have no real information about what was done in the 19th Century, but I have been shooting single action revolvers for over fifty years and know a fair amount about them.
 
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Wyatt knew-as have savvy gun handlers before and since-that mechanical devices can-and will-fail, and the only real safety is behind the eyes and between the ears.
 
Driftwood Johnson said:
Howdy

I thought I would chime in on this one, as many of you know I have some strong opinions on this matter.

I have no first hand knowledge of how 'cowboys' (let's be clear here, the Colt Single Action Army was an expensive gun, and not a whole lot of 'cowboys' would have been able to afford one) loaded their revolvers, whether they loaded five or six.

I can't put my finger on it right now, but I have read of an incident where Wyatt Earp's revolver slipped from his pocket while he was gambling, and it fired when it hit the floor.

I don't know one end of a horse from the other, but I do know it is common practice to flip one stirrup up onto the saddle while cinching the saddle, then the stirrup is lowered so the rider can mount the saddle. Elmer Keith related an incident where a friend of his was saddling his horse, and the stirrup fell onto the hammer of his holstered Colt. The Colt discharged, the bullet struck the man in the leg, and he died of blood loss.

Ruger completely redesigned their line of revolvers in the early 1970s to include transfer bars after loosing more than one expensive lawsuit from shooters injured by revolvers that had discharged when dropped. The revolvers had been loaded with six rounds.



The only historical document I can point to is this reprint of a manual on inspection and operation of Army revolvers and Gatling Guns, that was originally published in 1875.

View attachment 1104030




Yes, this manual indeed says to load all six chambers, and lower the hammer to the 'safety notch'.

View attachment 1104031




Now, let's get to what I do know. I have posted this photo many times. These are the lockwork parts of a 2nd Generation Colt. The upper arrow is pointing to the so called 'safety cock' notch on the hammer, the lower arrow is pointing to the sear at the tip of the trigger. For those of you who have not been inside a Colt, when the hammer is cocked to the 'safety position' the sear rests in the 'safety cock' notch. Look how thin the sear is. It would not take much of a blow to the hammer spur to shear off the tip of the trigger, allowing the hammer to fall with the force of the blow onto the primer of a cartridge. This could easily be enough force to fire a cartridge.

View attachment 1104032




Now let's look at the parts of a 1st Generation Colt. This one happens to be a Bisley Model that shipped in 1909. Again, look how thin the sear is. Again, it would not take much force to shear it off.

View attachment 1104033




While we're at it, let's take a look at the parts inside one of the old Three Screw Rugers, that predated the redesign which included transfer bars. Again, look how thin the sear is and how it would not take too much force to shear it off. Which is why Ruger lost the lawsuits.

View attachment 1104034




Now let's look at Smith and Wesson single action revolvers.

I have a number of antique Smith and Wesson revolvers, but these are the only ones with a rebounding hammer.

Top to bottom in this photo is a New Model Number Three that shipped in 1882. Directly below it is a 38 Single Action 3rd Model. I do not have a shipping date for it, but I do know it was refinished at the factory in 1937.

View attachment 1104035




This is a 32 Single Action, with box, that shipped in 1887. As stated on the box it has a rebounding hammer.

View attachment 1104036




Let's take a look inside the New Model Number Three. In this photo the hammer is at full cock.

View attachment 1104037




This is the position of the hammer at the moment a cartridge fires. The sear is trying to rock the hammer back, and I am holding the hammer all the way forward with my thumb.

View attachment 1104038




The hammer is in the half cock position in this photo. The hammer must be in this position in order to reload. Notice the slot at the top of the hammer has cleared the step at the bottom of the latch. The latch cannot be opened to load or unload the revolver unless the hammer is in this position.

View attachment 1104039




This is the most important photo for this discussion. The hammer has rebounded, rotated back slightly by the camming action of the sear. This is the normal position of the hammer. Look at how tiny the notch is on the hammer where the sear is resting. Also, look at how tiny the sear itself is. I have fired this revolver many times. I would not dream of leaving the hammer in this position with a live round under the hammer. It would not take much of a blow to the hammer to shear off that tiny interface between the sear and the hammer, allowing the revolver to discharge.

View attachment 1104040




I bought this 2nd Generation Colt a few years ago. It left the factory in 1973. It came with the box and the original owner's manual.

View attachment 1104041




I took a couple of photos of the owner's manual.

View attachment 1104042

View attachment 1104043




I zoomed in on the paragraph about the 'Safe Position"

View attachment 1104044




So, you can call it a myth if you want, and I have no real information about what was done in the 19th Century, but I have been shooting single action revolvers for over fifty years and know a fair amount about them.
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Always informative. It’s too bad we cannot find some like you who was born in the 1840s.
 
sleepysquirrel2 said:
index.php


But since you insist:
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LOL, I didn't move any goal posts, but you were making several logic flaws in your reasoning. You set up the goal post to prove Cowboy Load was a myth. You then argued from ignorance and at length, citing chronologically and ancillary-relevant data that are undoubtedly true, but also do not actually discuss any such behavior that you claim is a myth.

I like the historic photographs. I can't tell how many rounds any of these cowboys had in their guns and you can't either. However, even then we did know from these few images, it would not disprove cowboy loads. It would just show that some didn't do cowboy loading. You keep trying to argue from information that doesn't actually make your point.

I am not even saying you are wrong about your supposition, only that you haven't provided any documentation that cowboy carry didn't occur, not one single shred of documentation.

Driftwood Johnson said:
I can't put my finger on it right now, but I have read of an incident where Wyatt Earp's revolver slipped from his pocket while he was gambling, and it fired when it hit the floor.
Click to expand...

That was in Wichita, KS, 9 Jan 1876. Apparently, the revolver was NOT drop safe, but fortunately, nobody was injured.
 
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The Hammerli Virginian and Interams Virginian Dragoon had the "Swissafe" system-an extra long cylinder pin that could be pushed back and locked in place to keep the hammer from striking the firing pin.
The Colt SAA, the S&Ws, the Remington 1875 were all 1st generation designs, experience-usually gained the hard way-show subsequent designers what worked better-and what didn't work. Compare the loading lever latch of the Colt Walker with the more secure design of the Dragoon, compare the between the cylinders safety pins of those designs with the better designs of the 1851 Navy and 1860 Army.
"Experience is a dear school but a fool won't learn in any other." Ben Franklin
 
I think we get caught up in some nomenclature issues when talking about old revolvers, we generally just assume they were all Colts. Some 19th Century revolvers have manual rebounds or what some call the safety notch or first click in a Colt. This for many was just a means of relieving the firing pin pressure and presence so the cyljnder could be spun without damage to both pin and cylinder. Most later revolvers included an auto rebound. This first click on a Colt I do not believe was ever intended as any sort of safety. I believe if memory serves that it was the Colt Dragoons that incorporates a notch between cylinders and nipples for the hammer to rest while not in use. That was a safety. Other makers used a similar arrangement. Half cock was something of a carry over from percussion as it aided in loading. Forgive my ignorance of Colts but was there ever a function of the revolver that one was instructed on using in order to make it safe with a round under the hammer? There may have been items that made it less dangerous like the first click notch but I have never seen or read that it was recommended to carry on a loaded chamber in that manner. I always just took this issue as everyone that knew their gun knew it’s shortcomings and acted according to their comfort zone. From what I know carrying a revolver with a hammer down on a loaded chamber was not really made safe until the 20th Century and the advent of hammer blocks and transfer bars.
 
BLACKHAWKNJ said:
The Hammerli Virginian and Interams Virginian Dragoon had the "Swissafe" system-an extra long cylinder pin that could be pushed back and locked in place to keep the hammer from striking the firing pin.
Click to expand...

A simple change, I think put in to gain import points under GCA68. I have not seen anybody to actually use it. A lot have been cut off to give traditional appearance.

wcwhitey said:
I have never seen or read that it was recommended to carry on a loaded chamber in that manner.
Click to expand...

There are many period original instruction sets shown above recommending just that. We are now down into debate as to whether period users actually did that or were more cautious. Wyatt Earp was but only after his dropped gun went off. He shouldn't have had it loose in a pocket in the first place.

The "safety pins" between the nipples of percussion Colts are usually found battered down beyond effective use. I have seen reproductions with only one pin.

The notches between nipples of percussion Remingtons and Rugers are much more secure.

The Rigdon Ainsley Confederate "Colt" and the Manhattan revolver have an extra set of bolt notches between chambers for carry. I think there were a few real Colts with the feature.
 
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Jim Watson said:
A simple change, I think put in to gain import points under GCA68. I have not seen anybody to actually use it. A lot have been cut off to give traditional appearance.

There are many period original instruction sets shown above recommending just that. We are now down into debate as to whether period users actually did that or were more cautious. Wyatt Earp was but only after his dropped gun went off. He shouldn't have had it loose in a pocket in the first place.
Click to expand...

Fair enough, I know you have done your research on the old Colts. I do have a small issue though! Not everything was a Colt, actually it’s a small portion of what Cowboys deployed. We had Trantor, S&W, Webley, Remington just to name a few. In centerfire and rimfire. Many cartridge conversions were out there. A Colt cost the average of a few months pay for a Cow Hand. The West was filled with guns of all types. 3X more popular were the S&W #1’s and Baby Russians. Point is it’s not possible to know what everyone did, my guess would be there was no hard and fast rule. Things were far from standardized as we see on TV. But if we are going to talk just old boring Colt 1873’s (just kidding) then I will defer.
 
Yes, and Driftwood Johnson has examples of most of the US revolvers of the period. None seem much better than the SAA.
I don't know the penetration of good English and Continental revolvers in the American market, although there were certainly a lot of cheap copies.

I once toured the remains of the gold and silver mining town of Bodie, California.
A gunzine had a quote from the Sacramento Bee of the era.
It called Bodie "Bad Shot Gulch" because of the large number of shootings in and around the many saloons combined with the small number of casualties. The article may have answered its own question; an Army or Navy revolver in a scabbard was seldom seen in Bodie, "the usual weapon being a Bulldog revolver in a leather or canvas lined coat pocket."
 
sleepysquirrel2 said:
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sleepysquirrel2 said:
"For more than half a century, this model Single Action Revolver has been a favorite of the Old and New West where accuracy and extreme durability are required and gun-smiths are fewest [...] This is the model that blazed the trail west of the Mississippi. May be carried cocked and with the hammer in the safety notch."
-Colt's Patent Firearms Manufacturing Company, 1936
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Sorry pal, a revolver can either have the hammer on the safety notch, or it can be cocked. Not both simultaneously.
 
WCWhitey,

Thanks for the video. It puts in perspective
just what "small" place the Colt SAA had in
19th Century American handgun life.

The 5 or 6 debate regarding the SAA quite
possibly affected such a small percentage
of the population that few even could care,
not even lawyers.
 
Double Naught Spy said:
I like how you went to all those primary sources where they interviewed the cowboys and other folks in the Old West and they talked about how they never carried with an empty chamber. That was very convincing. :confused:

No, you are not here to discuss "What was done historically, back in the old west period of 1865-1890." You are here to make an argument to support your claim that something wasn't done in the Old West and you support your claim with documentation that isn't from the Old West, which is mind boggling given your build up about facts, sources, and all that other diatribe.

Gun boxes and pieces of paper with manufacturer recommendations are about as definitive of human behavior as manufacturer recommendations are today. At tremendous number of people don't follow them, don't even bother reading them, and of course we have a hugely superior literacy rate today than we did in the Old West, isn't that correct?

However, it is an interesting consideration to believe that everybody in the Old West was literate, had the directions for every gun they own, and were so anal-retentive that they did nothing but what the manufacturers, military, and gun writers suggested. Life would be great if people followed the directions to the letter (except when the directions turn out to be wrong, LOL).

Adding the writings of an east coast dandy such as writer and publisher A.C. Gould is a nice touch, but it did not seem that Mr. Gould was much of an ethnographer, documenting old west cowboy/pioneer behavior. The book that you cite, for example, mentions nothing of cowboy or Old West behavior.

The Army manual was a good addition. Everybody knows that everyone in the military only performs 100% by the book.



Sadly, the evidence isn't what you think it is. Look, you have made a nice, circumstantial argument about human behavior in the old west based on non-relevant sources. Sure, they are primary sources, but not primary sources for Old West behavior, right? NONE of the sources you cite actually talk about behavior in the Old West. This is a monumental problem with your argument. You have made a connection that you didn't justify.

So you are off to a good start with some background research. Now go find the actual primary sources with the cowboy and Old West pioneer interviews where they talk specifically about how they loaded their weapons. Then come back and share with us what you find, but understand that just because some people did something, doesn't mean everyone else did or didn't. Proving a negative, which is what you are trying to do, is exceptionally difficult, some people would say that it is impossible. Good luck.
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Sounds like your a upset, old western six gun denier, watching to many movies that say they were all illiterate... was the hardware store/gun store owner, who maketed and sold the gun illiterate too? Jeeze you six gun deniers are incredible... " drop your gun and it goes off while riding your horse... if they pulled the gun out it was most likely full cocked by then, not on safety notch. Use your heads guys, not input your unusual scenarios for people who knew how to handle guns and horses at the same time.
I load 6 and put it in or on the safety notch... I have one more shot than you deniers... but I don't need it...
 
Whatever way some, most or all carried the venerable Colt SAA, let's all agree
on two things:

1. We should thank SleepySquirrel for providing the 19th Century manuals.

2. The Old West and nearly all the people in it carried Winchester '92s from around 1845 until well into the 20th Century. ;)
 
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