Federal court rules that law criminalizing obliterating serial numbers on guns unconstitutional

WOW! Thats a shocker for sure.

Doubt this particular ruling will stand - but I've been wrong before... Finding a lowlife on the street holding a firearm with an eradicated serial number was something I always looked forward to - all those years ago when I was a young cop.... Most of the eradications could be restored by the lab - but one kind (the technique I'm sure was preferred by pros), removed the serial number completely (no I won't describe it here).

If I were to pass along any advice - I'd say run the other way if ever offered a firearm that had obviously had the serial number removed.. and remember that very few firearms before 1968 came with any serial number at all - they're perfectly legal...

Does there have to be a clear historical tradition to make a law? There are always new scenarios.

Theoretically, the S/N is no longer needed to know what gun it is, since a bullet from the barrel is saved at the factory with that barrel's "fingerprint". No?

S/N just makes it easier for the government to track the gun.

Could actually be an anti-gun move tactic.

Smaug said:

Theoretically, the S/N is no longer needed to know what gun it is, since a bullet from the barrel is saved at the factory with that barrel's "fingerprint". No?

S/N just makes it easier for the government to track the gun.

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Maybe thats a new thing but I am not aware of it. Serial numbers have little to do with solving crimes (outside maybe theft). If that were the case they would just serialize the barrels IMO. Im not a forensics expert though. Nor am I a hitman or killer. Im sure the case has identifying factors as well but that would just be slide and FP contact.

Could be a move by those who want more hard core regulation. Tear down the old tracking system and put in the new type stuff.

Smaug said:

Theoretically, the S/N is no longer needed to know what gun it is, since a bullet from the barrel is saved at the factory with that barrel's "fingerprint". No?

S/N just makes it easier for the government to track the gun.

Click to expand...

Only in Hollywood.

I think the fact many of us see this as a shocker should be a wake up call to the amount of unconstitutional firearms laws we’ve grown accustomed to.

The 2A is pretty clear. It isn’t there to restrict citizens, it’s there to restrict the government. But how many times do we hear anti-gun crowd saying “the second amendment doesn’t allow people to own XYZ guns!”

The second amendment was NOT written to apply to citizens! But we rarely articulate that well.

Smaug said:

Theoretically, the S/N is no longer needed to know what gun it is, since a bullet from the barrel is saved at the factory with that barrel's "fingerprint". No?

S/N just makes it easier for the government to track the gun.

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Are you saying manufacturers retain ballistics identity of the guns they sell?

I honestly don’t think so.

And what about an AR stripped lower receiver?

Smaug said:

Does there have to be a clear historical tradition to make a law? There are always new scenarios.

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Based on the recent SCOTUS case, laws need to pass the historical basis test of when the 2D and 14th amendments were put in place.


I’m probably not staying this correctly….so when I get corrected, I accept a legal pro’s rebuke and rebuttal.

Buzznrose said:

I think the fact many of us see this as a shocker should be a wake up call to the amount of unconstitutional firearms laws we’ve grown accustomed to.

The 2A is pretty clear. It isn’t there to restrict citizens, it’s there to restrict the government. But how many times do we hear anti-gun crowd saying “the second amendment doesn’t allow people to own XYZ guns!”

The second amendment was NOT written to apply to citizens! But we rarely articulate that well.

Click to expand...

The shocking part to me is that it would completely deep six the ability to track firearms which is why I am skeptical that there is not some deeper motive at play here. It would kind of turn every professionally manufactured firearm into a "ghost gun". I must not be understanding all this though.

I for one don't mind serialization of my guns. The chances that one I formerly owned being used in the commission of a crime is of less concern to me than the miniscule chance a stolen gun I rightfully own could potentially be returned.

I'm too lazy to look to see who argued against intact serial numbers, but they're not working on my behalf.

Smaug said:

since a bullet from the barrel is saved at the factory with that barrel's "fingerprint". No?

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Only since the very ate 90s at best, and not anywhere near universally.

Also, 1st purchase records are hardly definitive as to the present owner.

I think the judge got it wrong. A serial # does not infringe 2A Right. Serial numbers do not prohibit anyone who can legally possess a firearm from doing so. They are like serial numbers in vehicles. Every vehicle has a serial number and anyone may own a vehicle. If you think about it, many expensive items have serial numbers: smart phones, computers, TVs and more. They are part of keeping warranty services proper and for insurance records and settlements on listed items. They prove the item existed and therefore is subject to warranties and settlements.

So unless someone can explain to me how a serial number in a firearm keeps them from legally owning the firearm, I say the judge got it wrong.

starling said:

The shocking part to me is that it would completely deep six the ability to track firearms which is why I am skeptical that there is not some deeper motive at play here. It would kind of turn every professionally manufactured firearm into a "ghost gun". I must not be understanding all this though.

Click to expand...

It could be something simpler. For example, if I received as a gift a gun from my great-great grandfather that either didn't have a S/N or the S/N was obliterated, I would be a criminal. It might not be my FAULT that it has no S/N.

It wouldn't necessarily make every gun a ghost gun, but obliterating the S/N would no longer be illegal. As you said; why is this coming up? Are they just going to start using the test bullet instead, so they can even track ghost guns without S/Ns?

Knowing the background would be interesting.

Smaug said:

if I received as a gift a gun from my great-great grandfather that either didn't have a S/N or the S/N was obliterated, I would be a criminal

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Well, if it was made before 1968, it wouldn't matter. No clue how old your great great grandaddy was then. I'm mid 40's and my great grandpa died 45 years before I was born. His dad died prior to WWI.

Smaug said:

so they can even track ghost guns without Serial numbers

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Since most "ghost" guns (maybe all, I dunno) are assembled from parts, I'm not sure that could happen. Tracing a bullet to one specific AR barrel out of millions with no way of knowing who bought, sold, assembled, used, etc...seems like they'd need to test fire each barrel and put some kinda identifier on them. Like a serial number or something.

dweis said:

I think the judge got it wrong. A serial # does not infringe 2A Right. Serial numbers do not prohibit anyone who can legally possess a firearm from doing so. They are like serial numbers in vehicles. Every vehicle has a serial number and anyone may own a vehicle. If you think about it, many expensive items have serial numbers: smart phones, computers, TVs and more. They are part of keeping warranty services proper and for insurance records and settlements on listed items. They prove the item existed and therefore is subject to warranties and settlements.

So unless someone can explain to me how a serial number in a firearm keeps them from legally owning the firearm, I say the judge got it wrong.

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Is that the basis of the ruling? I think you have it backwards.

Judge said serial numbers were NOT REQUIRED for possession of a firearm.

You need a serial number on a vehicle to register it, but not to own or possess it.

Smaug said:

It could be something simpler. For example, if I received as a gift a gun from my great-great grandfather that either didn't have a S/N or the S/N was obliterated, I would be a criminal. It might not be my FAULT that it has no S/N.

It wouldn't necessarily make every gun a ghost gun, but obliterating the S/N would no longer be illegal. As you said; why is this coming up? Are they just going to start using the test bullet instead, so they can even track ghost guns without S/Ns?

Knowing the background would be interesting.

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LOts of folks have firearms made prior to 1960 that don’t have any serial number, and ALL are legal as SN’s were not required before sometime after that.

Also, homemade firearms do not require a SN today as long as it’s not sold.

starling said:

The shocking part to me is that it would completely deep six the ability to track firearms which is why I am skeptical that there is not some deeper motive at play here. It would kind of turn every professionally manufactured firearm into a "ghost gun". I must not be understanding all this though.

Click to expand...

I think the part you are not understanding is the purpose and history of a firearm SN. They weren’t actually required by law until the Gun Control Act of 1968.

I’m guessing you live in a state that is very restrictive of firearms and have developed the paradigm that guns need to be controlled rigidly.

Please don’t take that as a personal attack, it is not. My in laws whom I love and respect deeply (from NY) get totally freaked out when they come to TX and see how firearms and ammo are way easier to buy and sell. I try and explain it doesn’t matter…the restrictions they must adhere to only hurt the law abiding citizen, but they just have a hard time grasping it after living under NY laws for so long.

But the reality is having or not having a SN matters not to a person seeking to do evil.

Smaug said:

Theoretically, the S/N is no longer needed to know what gun it is, since a bullet from the barrel is saved at the factory with that barrel's "fingerprint". No?

S/N just makes it easier for the government to track the gun.

Click to expand...

No, and you can easily legally buy a replacement or aftermarket barrel without any paperwork and install it. So, there would be no point in doing this.

Ethan Verity said:

No, and you can easily legally buy a replacement or aftermarket barrel without any paperwork and install it. So, there would be no point in doing this.

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Exactly.

Buzznrose said:

I think the part you are not understanding is the purpose and history of a firearm SN. They weren’t actually required by law until the Gun Control Act of 1968.

I’m guessing you live in a state that is very restrictive of firearms and have developed the paradigm that guns need to be controlled rigidly.

Please don’t take that as a personal attack, it is not. My in laws whom I love and respect deeply (from NY) get totally freaked out when they come to TX and see how firearms and ammo are way easier to buy and sell. But the reality is having or not having a SN matters not to a person seeking to do evil.

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Not at all. I am in Gun country and have been into firearms since I was very young. My concern here is "whats the real play/con going on". If I am understanding this correctly its one of the most radical rulings I have ever seen. Gut feeling is there is something bigger at play here. Think about the repercussions in play in terms of straw purchase buyers. Firearms would be as easy to get and hard to regulate as Alchohol and Tobacco. Many people would be for that... many against. Me personally doesnt matter because I am just a nobody. I am just a little shocked this is happening right now with everything going on right in the midst of culture wars and political insanity. Very strange timing.

Ethan Verity said:

No, and you can easily legally buy a replacement or aftermarket barrel without any paperwork and install it. So, there would be no point in doing this.

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I would assume those barrels will have been slugged, too. So unless you buy it used they would correlate it back to the buyer.

Ethan Verity said:

No, and you can easily legally buy a replacement or aftermarket barrel without any paperwork and install it. So, there would be no point in doing this.

Click to expand...

You would have to start putting serial numbers on the barrels and create a new database. Other countries go this route.

I am not for this of course because its not going to stop bad people from doing bad things but If I was putting myself in the head of a gun control freak then it makes sense. The way they do things now it basically just gives a fairly intelligent (be it unethical) person a workaround. Not a very useful approach to take in terms of actually solving crimes through forensics/ballistics. I also dont believe for a second that LE and the ATF dont understand this notion. Why they have continued this for so long can take you to some very dark places.