OFFGRID
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virginia is screwed up. id pack up and move
Illegally using Dogs for Deer
- Thread starter wolf695
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virginia is screwed up. id pack up and move
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
If your dogs have GPS collars on them, then why did you let them go onto my property in the first place?
You seem to be echoing the spirit of dog hunters who seem to never quite understand how their dogs got onto the wrong person's property. Of course they know. They allowed it to happen, which is what makes it an unethical practice.
red rick
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When mine cross a property line , I get them back as quick as I can , even though it is not unlawful for them to cross onto your property , or even me , if I don’t have a gun and I am walking , in most counties in Virginia . I run rabbits and use beagles . You hunt a lot closer to your dogs rabbit hunting than deer hunting . I am usually no further than 50 yards from my dogs and a rabbit usually circles back to where it was first jumped . It usually doesn’t run a straight line out of the county like a deer does .
You must not hunt deer with dogs , they are usually miles ahead of you when they are running . When you turn them out , you don’t stop them . They run until they are tired You have to drive to keep up with them when they jump ( running a deer ) . But in most cases If my dogs were trained to the collar , I wouldn’t need to go on your property to get them . They would come to me , if they could hear me .
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red rick
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I agree , their hunting laws need some changes . But you could move into a residential neighborhood here and probably not have it happen to you , because they have leash laws and no hunting allowed .
buck460XVR
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Exactly. It seems we have deviated from the OP, which in my understanding was the illegal use of dogs to drive deer to another property, to the ethics of using dogs where legal.
Same can be said about many forms of using dogs for hunting. Running bears, running cats, running 'yotes. Yet most think that running rabbits and pointing upland game is much more "ethical"....almost "gentlemanly". What most folks don't realize is, that many times, without the use of dogs, because of terrain, amount of area and high populations, that the use of dogs is the only effective way to control those populations. While there is still a need for some ethics involved, the legality of it, makes it "appropriate". Similar to trapping. One only has to look at raccoon and other ground nest predator populations, that at one time were heavily controlled by trapping and the use of dogs. Nowadays, no one traps and very few folks around here have "coon dogs". The ground nesters like wild turkeys, grouse, quail and pheasants have been heavily impacted.
This comes down to how your state looks at the rights of property owners. Here in Wisconsin, growing up and hunting in the 60s, I could hunt any property that did not have a signed no trespassing sign every 40 yards around the perimeter. At the same time, most folks would let you hunt if you asked. Since then the rules have changed several times as sentiment about property ownership has changed. Now, no posting at all is needed unless you border public land. Even then, you are responsible to know who owns the property you are on and need to have written or oral permission. If your dog is on a property without permission, you can be charged/fined with trespassing. If there is proof an arrow or a bullet from your gun lands on the neighbor's property, you can be, in extreme cases, be charged/fined for trespassing. Anytime a dog is allowed loose, is off the owners property/property it does not have permission to be on, and not under the direct control of it's owner, it is considered "running at large". All of this had come about because of the many things mentioned here and the state's stance on property owner's rights.
In my case, there's no need to haul the dog 50 miles. I just call the local humane society and a local LEO comes and picks up the dog and takes it to the local pound. Last time I was asked why I just didn't call the number on the collar. My response was, I don't need some irresponsible dirtball coming to my house to pick up a dog, he doesn't control. He agreed.
red rick
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buck460XVR
Same can be said about many forms of using dogs for hunting. Running bears, running cats, running 'yotes. Yet most think that running rabbits and pointing upland game is much more "ethical"....almost "gentlemanly". What most folks don't realize is, that many times, without the use of dogs, because of terrain, amount of area and high populations, that the use of dogs is the only effective way to control those populations. While there is still a need for some ethics involved, the legality of it, makes it "appropriate". Similar to trapping. One only has to look at raccoon and other ground nest predator populations, that at one time were heavily controlled by trapping and the use of dogs. Nowadays, no one traps and very few folks around here have "coon dogs". The ground nesters like wild turkeys, grouse, quail and pheasants have been heavily impacted.
In my case, there's no need to haul the dog 50 miles. I just call the local humane society and a local LEO comes and picks up the dog and takes it to the local pound. Last time I was asked why I just didn't call the number on the collar. My response was, I don't need some irresponsible dirtball coming to my house to pick up a dog, he doesn't control. He agreed.[/QUOTE]
Not that my opinion means squat . I don’t consider hunting deer with dogs unethical , or hunting any other wild game with dogs unethical . What I consider borderline unethical and dangerous , is how they do it in my county . The combination of using a gps on the dogs , all the hunters using cb radios to communicate where the dogs are running and then using their trucks to cut them off and jumping out in the road and shooting . They call that truck hunting here . I have seen multiple trucks line up on the opposite side of the road with the hunters standing outside of their trucks in the road while the dogs are running through my property towards them . You know that as soon as they see that deer hit the ditch on my side of the road , they are going to be shooting into my property . Some hunters have told me that they have hit the deer on purpose with the truck and then jump out and shoot them . IMO my county and other counties that allow this could make it unlawful to hunt within 20 yards of a state road .
I wish that we would adopt Wisconsin laws on people and dogs coming onto posted private property . I really don’t have a problem with dogs running through my property as long as they keep going . I don’t like anyone coming onto my property at any hour of the day or night and people that drop their dogs at night and go back home and go to sleep while their dog is at my house making my dogs bark , keeping me awake all night . I have a big problem with that and they are the ones that give houndsmen a bad name and cause laws to be passed and hunting deer with dogs outlawed in certain states .
Same can be said about many forms of using dogs for hunting. Running bears, running cats, running 'yotes. Yet most think that running rabbits and pointing upland game is much more "ethical"....almost "gentlemanly". What most folks don't realize is, that many times, without the use of dogs, because of terrain, amount of area and high populations, that the use of dogs is the only effective way to control those populations. While there is still a need for some ethics involved, the legality of it, makes it "appropriate". Similar to trapping. One only has to look at raccoon and other ground nest predator populations, that at one time were heavily controlled by trapping and the use of dogs. Nowadays, no one traps and very few folks around here have "coon dogs". The ground nesters like wild turkeys, grouse, quail and pheasants have been heavily impacted.
In my case, there's no need to haul the dog 50 miles. I just call the local humane society and a local LEO comes and picks up the dog and takes it to the local pound. Last time I was asked why I just didn't call the number on the collar. My response was, I don't need some irresponsible dirtball coming to my house to pick up a dog, he doesn't control. He agreed.[/QUOTE]
Not that my opinion means squat . I don’t consider hunting deer with dogs unethical , or hunting any other wild game with dogs unethical . What I consider borderline unethical and dangerous , is how they do it in my county . The combination of using a gps on the dogs , all the hunters using cb radios to communicate where the dogs are running and then using their trucks to cut them off and jumping out in the road and shooting . They call that truck hunting here . I have seen multiple trucks line up on the opposite side of the road with the hunters standing outside of their trucks in the road while the dogs are running through my property towards them . You know that as soon as they see that deer hit the ditch on my side of the road , they are going to be shooting into my property . Some hunters have told me that they have hit the deer on purpose with the truck and then jump out and shoot them . IMO my county and other counties that allow this could make it unlawful to hunt within 20 yards of a state road .
I wish that we would adopt Wisconsin laws on people and dogs coming onto posted private property . I really don’t have a problem with dogs running through my property as long as they keep going . I don’t like anyone coming onto my property at any hour of the day or night and people that drop their dogs at night and go back home and go to sleep while their dog is at my house making my dogs bark , keeping me awake all night . I have a big problem with that and they are the ones that give houndsmen a bad name and cause laws to be passed and hunting deer with dogs outlawed in certain states .
Kinda of a rough attitude. Generally I'd give someone the benefit of doubt on a first go, after that well I understand. Far as trespass goes, armed trespass here in Florida is a felony....and that includes hunting. It's also a fact that malicious killing of a domestic animal will get you into no small difficulty as well. I endorse and agree with the ID and corrective collar law that just went into effect here, as well as the law that proscribes removal of that collar by unauthorized people.
The real issue in running dogs is primarily one of landowner conflict............no one wants to hear 30 hounds in full cry thru a residential area at 0200.........and the AH's that do such ought to bear some liability....still, there are incidents that don't fit that bill and to respond with all guns blazing because of personal bias is just a bit much.
For my money, most of the anti dog regulations are overkill and ought to be revisited. In particular there is no reason why areas that consist of tens of thousands of public land ought not to permit the practice........if it is not biologically harmful truly there is no reason to ban it......it's merely custom and tradition that keep these sort of laws in place.......as an example one may run bear hounds in W.va next to the Md. line........should those dogs cross into Md. or Pa....that owner is in deep do do..............he'll lose his dogs and eat a hefty penalty. Mostly, from what I've seen the rule's, even here in Fla.) are more than arbitrary and subjective, and designed more to please the bureaucrat than enhance either the hunt experience or the biological purpose
Really, it's more of a people problem than a method issue and in most instances just does not make a lot of sense! Just what the devil is inherently wrong about taking your dog (regardless of breed) along to kick up a deer........and most especially when one considers the use of multi manned hunter drives............gawd, talk about dangerous!
The real issue in running dogs is primarily one of landowner conflict............no one wants to hear 30 hounds in full cry thru a residential area at 0200.........and the AH's that do such ought to bear some liability....still, there are incidents that don't fit that bill and to respond with all guns blazing because of personal bias is just a bit much.
For my money, most of the anti dog regulations are overkill and ought to be revisited. In particular there is no reason why areas that consist of tens of thousands of public land ought not to permit the practice........if it is not biologically harmful truly there is no reason to ban it......it's merely custom and tradition that keep these sort of laws in place.......as an example one may run bear hounds in W.va next to the Md. line........should those dogs cross into Md. or Pa....that owner is in deep do do..............he'll lose his dogs and eat a hefty penalty. Mostly, from what I've seen the rule's, even here in Fla.) are more than arbitrary and subjective, and designed more to please the bureaucrat than enhance either the hunt experience or the biological purpose
Really, it's more of a people problem than a method issue and in most instances just does not make a lot of sense! Just what the devil is inherently wrong about taking your dog (regardless of breed) along to kick up a deer........and most especially when one considers the use of multi manned hunter drives............gawd, talk about dangerous!
red rick
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It’s always been , the small percent of the bad ones , ruin it for everyone . We had a vote many years ago on our election ballot about banning deer hunting with dogs . I voted against it then , but my views have changed since and I consider myself a houndsman . I pleasure run my beagles 3 or 4 times a week on my property all year long except when the temperature gets above 75 degrees and humid .
FL-NC
Member
Hunting deer with dogs is popular here in Fl. It isn't for me though, I'd rather sit in a tree or a ground blind. There is a hunting club adjacent to the private property where I hunt, and they have some dog hunting going on over there- I can hear it, along with a lot of other loud tomfoolery with ATV's, trucks, etc. I'm not a part of it and don't want to be, and I've never seen one of their dogs on the property I hunt, but I have shot a few deer on some of the days when they were the loudest. I like to think they are pushing them towards me in my quieter area with less pressure.
buck460XVR
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Many times, ethics are dictated by local societies and culture. If it's legal to do what you claim the hunters are doing in your area, than the ethics of it are hard to argue against. The problem there is not the hunters, but your laws. Here, It's illegal to shoot within 50' of a roadway, from a roadway or across a roadway if the road is shown on a map. As said before, it is also illegal to shoot onto a property without the owners permission. Yet, unfortunately, it is still done all the time.
Seems folks want to argue about the ethics of the hunting of deer with dogs legally, where this thread is not about that at all.
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jmorris
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Yeah around 25 years ago we had a bit of a tense encounter with two armed fellows on horse back. They came up on 3 or 4 of us, also hunting and asked what we were doing on the property, it a fairly unfriendly manner, stating they had written permission to hunt the property. I informed them that we were the owners and never has any written permission been granted to anyone, going back two generations permission to hunt was always with words and a handshake. A couple weeks later their dog came across us again, in pretty bad shape. It was tagged with contact information, so we called the number. They were happy as they “lost him” a week prior, GPS had failed. I must have been too hard on them as one of them sent the Mrs. to retrieve the dog.
They were in search of pigs, that I also need eliminated though.
Rpod86
Member
As a coon hunter this is. 2 part problem for me 1 have I had dogs run deer yes. Do I want them 2 no. Do they know property lines no.. is baiting legal In Your state if so more than likely you will bait in coon hunters also lol… that being said if ppl are running deer dogs here is a trick shoot a deer drag the hide around throw it over electric fence this might break a dog from running deer has worked for plenty of coon dogs in the past
Ranger99
Member
Used to could buy "breaking scents " to
discourage dogs from running unwanted
prey. A man I remember used it for his
squirrel dogs to keep them from trailing
and running deer. Has an absorbent felt
pad or something you put on the collar
and the smell is stench to a dog and
makes it to where that's the last thing
they want contact with.
Trapping supply or field dog supply
places should have it or know of it
discourage dogs from running unwanted
prey. A man I remember used it for his
squirrel dogs to keep them from trailing
and running deer. Has an absorbent felt
pad or something you put on the collar
and the smell is stench to a dog and
makes it to where that's the last thing
they want contact with.
Trapping supply or field dog supply
places should have it or know of it
Here in Idaho, state law specifically codifies that anyone can legally kill dogs that are chasing cervids.
If I could trade legalization of deer hunting with dogs nationwide for making ATV use illegal until after an animal was down, I'd do it. Hunting with ATV's has led to far more problems than hunting with dogs , IMO.
mgmorden
Member
Looking at the actual law, it looks like you have to be essentially LEO or a conservation officer/game warden (or the local equivalent) for this to apply:
It's more than hunting. ATVs make trespassing easier and more common. I only recently got an ATV. For 8 years prior to that I couldn't afford one after paying the mortgage and property taxes on my hunting land. All the "neighbors" have ATVs and side-by-sides and were not acquainted with the idea of property lines.
Now many might say trespass is trespass so what does this have to do with ATVs? Well how far back into your property is a middle-aged, overweight neighbor going to make it on foot? How about with an ATV? How much damage will your "neighbors" boots do on your trail? Now how about his side-by-side?
How far will a neighbor carry a chainsaw to cut open a trail if he's on foot? Now how about if he has an ATV or side-by-side?
RetiredUSNChief
Member
Heh! I was about to say "mail it out of country" when I read this!
A flip to this would be to put it on the bumper of the guy's wife or girlfriend's car...
AMEN!! Had a friend taking a lunch break on a power line that was broadsided by an ATV ridden by a 14 yo.........WITH the parents permission and they were present at the time!.................Damnable pain and dangerous as hell!!
Oh yeah, and the final words from that bunch of fools was something like "don't you yell at my kid"!!
I see that. Could have sworn that I'd read that. I'll do some more looking. Maybe I was mistaken.
Arkansas Paul
Member
Agreed. The people who think hunting with dogs is unethical are still going into the woods with guns and shooting deer that are defenseless. If you have a gun and your quarry does not, I don't care what legal method you think is ethical.
For the OP, I'm in agreement with the illegal dog hunting situation. It's not my cup of tea most of the time, but there are days at my lease if the deer aren't moving, I'll jump in on a race mid-day. But it's legal, and if you're in an area where it's not, it just bothers everyone who hunts legally.
mgmorden
Member
I don't think its unethical, though I don't really support it (it is legal here). I grew up dog hunting and until I was an adult to me it was what sprung to mind when people just said "deer hunting". I killed my first 9 or 10 deer dog hunting. I've observed though a LOT of things that I just don't consider safe. Its a common practice here to "string" hunters down a road spaced about 50-60 yards apart.
Often they will be setting up on main highways open to vehicle traffic impeding normal traffic flow. I've seen a lot of hunters trying to flag down regular cars driving on the road to make them stop if the dogs are close which is greatly annoying to the regular public. They also try so say "everyone stand on one side of the road that way we can shoot on the other side if the deer is crossing". Even if done CORRECTLY this puts another person within about a 15 degree angle of your potential shot. My dad has been shot dog hunting. My uncle has been shot dog hunting. I have a cousin that has been shot dog hunting. The uncle's wounds were not that serious but both my dad and the cousin nearly died. As a result on the very rare case that I DO go out dog hunting these days I'm always going to walk out into the woods a ways rather than trying to string and surround a block.
Combine that with the fact that it ruins the area ran for a good week or two afterwards (and by law you can't still hunt public land when its open for dog hunting), and I just don't support the practice. I'm not going to actively campaign against it, but on any state DNR surveys I'm always in support of restricting it (either removing it altogether or restricting it to private land only).
I will say that it has been pretty thoroughly restricted since I was a kid. Used to be you could hunt most any public hunt unit with dogs starting from the first day of the season and they only kept a few as still hunting only. These days they don't open anything up to dogs until half-way through the season and then its only one unit at a time which rotates each weekend.
Plus as a "city" dweller (as my relatives call it anyways - I live in a town with a population of around 15,000 which is tiny by most people's metrics
), its just not practical to keep and raise dogs, but I can easily pack up my truck and drive 10 minutes out to the woods and hang a tree stand or drop a ground blind, so still hunting is just far more practical.
Arkansas Paul
Member
I was aware that in some states you can shoot along the highway legally. That's insane to me.
In Arkansas you have to be 100 ft from the center line. It boggles my mind that some states allow this.
I also have seen some crazy unsafe things, but have been fortunate enough to not see anyone get shot.
I'm not really a fan of dog hunting either. Just have no problem with folks doing it legally and safely.
Heck I do 90% of my hunting from a box stand with a heater and a cup of coffee looking at a corn pile. There's another can of worms for folks to call unethical. lol
Ranger99
Member
Just me- as long as the next guy is
all legal, I don't worry about what he's
doing. I also expect the same courtesy
from him and to respect my property
lines. It's all fenced, so there's not
any questions as to trespassing or not
all legal, I don't worry about what he's
doing. I also expect the same courtesy
from him and to respect my property
lines. It's all fenced, so there's not
any questions as to trespassing or not
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