Firing the .357 Magnum and Ear Damage

Brubz

Brubz

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Someone on another thread made an interesting point about using a .357 Magnum for personal protection.he said if you're attacked and you're not wearing ear protection you may fend off your attacker but you will probably suffer permanent and irreversible damage to your hearing.
Now obviously all guns are noisy but I'm wondering has anyone done any studies on how loud various cartridges are? everyone talks about feet per second but I never see anything about sound level.
How much louder is a .357 than a 9mm or .38 special? Does anyone even research this?
I want to defend myself without having to wear earplugs everywhere I go
 
Brubz said:
any studies on how loud various cartridges are?
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Plenty of them have been presented here at THR. Here's one from EAR. Remember that these are averages and barrel length and cartridge load will vary these noise levels somewhat. Also note that 140dB is considered instantaneously damaging and over time will produce measurable and noticeable reduction in hearing.

upload_2023-2-3_11-23-10.png

Would we wear plugs and muffs while shooting recreationaly? Of course.
Would we do so in a self defense shooting? Only if we had the time to put on electronic hearing pro that allowed us to hear everything but the gunshot.
 
hso said:
Plenty of them have been presented here at THR. Here's one from EAR. Remember that these are averages and barrel length and cartridge load will vary these noise levels somewhat. Also note that 140dB is considered instantaneously damaging and over time will produce measurable and noticeable reduction in hearing.

View attachment 1131144

Would we wear plugs and muffs while shooting recreationaly? Of course.
Would we do so in a self defense shooting? Only if we had the time to put on electronic hearing pro that allowed us to hear everything but the gunshot.
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This is very interesting there really isn't that much difference between 9 mm and .357 Magnum. I guess I'm just going to have to ask my attacker politely to wait while I put in my earplugs. Lol
 
The numbers on that chart were surprisingly close. I have considered the effects of a shot in a dark room and believe that you will not only be temporarily deafened but temporarily blinded. You might have time to slip on a pair of electronic muffs, and you might not. They would defiantly give you a tactical advantage. Would a suppressor reduce the muzzle flash?
 
Can't have one of these discussions without the obligatory "Bear in mind that, because it's a logarithmic scale, even small differences can be big differences" bit.

Having said that, though, pretty much any centerfire round (and most rimfires as well) are deeply into the range of "Will cause instantaneous damage". Will the .357 cause more damage? I don't think anyone has ever tested that sort of thing. It's kind of akin to saying that two million volts is more dangerous than one million. I suppose it may be, but isn't it all kind of academic?

For those who are financially and legally able to do it, a suppressor on the HD gun may be a fine idea - though I have no idea if such a thing opens legal liability doors that are better left closed.
 
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Having shot .357 magnum in an enclosed environment without hearing protection, there's been no discernable difference to my hearing, and definitely no fainting or dizziness at the time. So I'm certainly not going to worry about hearing loss whilst in the midst of a life and death confrontation.

However, I would not choose .357 Magnum for home defense. I'd choose 10mm or .357 Sig instead, in a semi automatic pistol. Higher capacity, weapon light, cartridges loaded using powders with a flash suppressant rather than a fireball, option to use night sights, etc.
 
One thing that keeps hearing aid companies and hearing clinics open (mine included) is that hearing damage is cumulative and often doesn't show up for quite some time. "We do the damage in our twenties and start paying the price in our fifties" or something like that.

Some folks can get away with more than others, of course, but I wouldn't count on being one of them.
 
.38 Special said:
One thing that keeps hearing aid companies and hearing clinics open (mine included) is that hearing damage is cumulative and often doesn't show up for quite some time. "We do the damage in our twenties and start paying the price in our fifties" or something like that.

Some folks can get away with more than others, of course, but I wouldn't count on being one of them.
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Yeah, it's not something to do for fun, or to take lightly.
 
When I was a teenager in the late '70's and on the 4-H trap team, no one, self included, wore hearing protection. It just wasn't a thing back then. When we moved to a farm I started shooting even more, and without hearing protection. What made me start using it was my 4" Model 13 .357 Magnum. That thing HURT my ears.

All that said, 40+ years later, while my hearing certainly isn't what I wish it was, it's far from "damaged". So I seriously doubt firing a round or three in self defense is going to cause any serious permanent hearing damage. If it were so, all of our combat veterans would be totally deaf.

35W
 
Brubz said:
This is very interesting there really isn't that much difference between 9 mm and .357 Magnum. I guess I'm just going to have to ask my attacker politely to wait while I put in my earplugs. Lol
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I would think there is more to it than the chart makes it out to be, it’s more complicated than just a sheet of numbers.

In our context (defensive shooting) one would likely suffer more hearing damage from firing a 9mm or 45 indoors, than a 357 in a parking lot. I don’t necessarily know the data, just going from experience.

To your other point, it’s not like we can keep ear protection in all the time, and all common calibers are above 140 even in open spaces.
 
DeepSouth said:
I would think there is more to it than the chart makes it out to be, it’s more complicated than just a sheet of numbers.

In our context (defensive shooting) one would likely suffer more hearing damage from firing a 9mm or 45 indoors, than a 357 in a parking lot. I don’t necessarily know the data, just going from experience.

To your other point, it’s not like we can keep ear protection in all the time, and all common calibers are above 140 even in open spaces.
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FOR SURE. There are many, many factors that affect the noise level of handgun cartridges, many of them unexplainable. A 32WCF/32-20 is a deafening cartridge to shoot, even Elmer Ketih mentioned it in his book SIXGUNS and Brian Pearce has mentioned it in his pieces. A .357 with a max load of slow burning powder such as AL2400 is hard on hearing too, but back down to a smaller quantity of a medium burning powder and it quietens down quite a bit.

35W
 
Brubz said:
This is very interesting there really isn't that much difference between 9 mm and .357 Magnum. I guess I'm just going to have to ask my attacker politely to wait while I put in my earplugs. Lol
Click to expand...



There is more of a difference than it seems difference. Decibels are exponential Plus that is just one chart. You can download an app on your phone to measure sound.

Decibels increase exponentially
'A 10 db increase means 10 times louder, a 20 db increase means 100 times louder'


https://www.healthyhearing.com/report/52514-What-is-a-decibel
 
35 Whelen said:
When I was a teenager in the late '70's and on the 4-H trap team, no one, self included, wore hearing protection. It just wasn't a thing back then. When we moved to a farm I started shooting even more, and without hearing protection. What made me start using it was my 4" Model 13 .357 Magnum. That thing HURT my ears.

All that said, 40+ years later, while my hearing certainly isn't what I wish it was, it's far from "damaged". So I seriously doubt firing a round or three in self defense is going to cause any serious permanent hearing damage. If it were so, all of our combat veterans would be totally deaf.

35W
Click to expand...

Post your audiogram. :p

In all seriousness, I constantly hear that sort of thing from clients. "My hearing is fine. The problem is that everyone mumbles" or "Well, my hearing isn't perfect, but it's no big deal" said by someone dragged in by a wife or adult child who is tired of yelling everything three times. Then we test them, discover significant hearing loss - and yes, any hearing loss caused by noise exposure is "damage" - fit them with hearing aids, and then listen to them complain about how everything is too loud now.

And for what it is worth, we have a V.A. contract and work with "deaf" veterans every day. The top two disability claims in the American military are tinnitus (ringing in the ears, caused by noise exposure) and hearing loss.

I'll get off my soapbox, as I really don't have a firm opinion on noise exposure during gunfights, but just want to note that casual attitudes toward noise exposure have bought me a pretty nice house and a whole bunch of guns!
 
.38 Special said:
Post your audiogram. :p

In all seriousness, I constantly hear that sort of thing from clients. "My hearing is fine. The problem is that everyone mumbles" or "Well, my hearing isn't perfect, but it's no big deal" said by someone dragged in by a wife or adult child who is tired of yelling everything three times. Then we test them, discover significant hearing loss - and yes, any hearing loss caused by noise exposure is "damage" - fit them with hearing aids, and then listen to them complain about how everything is too loud now.

And for what it is worth, we have a V.A. contract and work with "deaf" veterans every day. The top two disability claims in the American military are tinnitus (ringing in the ears, caused by noise exposure) and hearing loss.

I'll get off my soapbox, as I really don't have a firm opinion on noise exposure during gunfights, but just want to note that casual attitudes toward noise exposure have bought me a pretty nice house and a whole bunch of guns!
Click to expand...

I have had my hearing tested and the audiologist asked, "I bet you're a right-handed shooter, aren't you?", to which I replied "Yes, how did you know?". He said, "Because you have more hearing loss in your left ear than your right. The left ear of right-handed shooters is exposed to more noise than the right ear due to the position of the head while shooting."

So yes, between 50 years of shooting and almost 40 years as a professional musician, I definitely have some hearing issues (tinnitus), which you refer to as damage, and which I definitely acknowledge. But it's certainly not to the extent that it hampers my ability to work or my day-to-day activities.

35W
 
35 Whelen said:
So yes, between 50 years of shooting and almost 40 years as a professional musician, I definitely have some hearing issues (tinnitus), which you refer to as damage, and which I definitely acknowledge. But it's certainly not to the extent that it hampers my ability to work or my day-to-day activities.
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"I'm fine. It's just that everyone mumbles." :neener:

<edit> Seriously, you've been diagnosed with hearing loss - that for some reason you don't want to refer to as "damage" - and your audiologist has told you that it's at least partly due to gunfire. Doesn't that kind of undermine your argument?
 
I fired a single round of Barnes .357 140gr Vor-tx indoors (lax moment at the indoor range without ears) and I wouldn't reccomend it. I'm not deaf from the single shot but it definitely put my ears into stun mode for a couple days. I spent a good amount of time around motorcycles, usually riding with ear protection (10 years daily riding on an open megaphone Kawasaki Zrx1200r) and lots of time at heavy metal shows, yet nothing compares immediately to that single errant shot. I felt for sure that I'd have tinnitus the rest of my life and it took days for my ears to stop ringing.

If I was wedded to .357 for HD/SD I wouldn't change what made me most comfortable for a "quieter" round but under most circumstances I don't think you're giving up very much by going to a 9mm. I even walked back from .45 for HD because the 185gr +p were too much flash and bang for me.
 
In the 60's through the 80s I shot my .357 (Ruger Blackhawk) more times than I could count. Also shot a Ruger Blackhawk convertible in 45 Colt. Handloads were not maximum but in the upper half of the loading manual listings. In my opinion the report from 357 is significantly different than the 45. To me it is more of a very sharp crack instead of a boom. Almost no one used hearing protection in the 60s & 70s. Full disclosure I also fired rifles in 30-30, 30-06, French 7.5 MAS, 45-70 and 300 Winchester Magnum during this time. I firmly believe that the 357 is the main cause of my hearing damage. My ears ring ALL the time - it never goes away. Sometimes it is the loudest sound that I hear. I do not hear many sounds above 8 or 10 thousand cycles unless they are very loud. I cannot hear the upper keys of a piano - about 12 keys. I can hear the hammer, but not the tone. While driving, emergency vehicle sirens must be in sight before I hear them. Hearing aids help some, but not in all environments.
My advice! Protect your ears.

NRA Benefactor Golden Eagle
 
243winxb said:
Google- Any noise over 120 decibels, for any length of time, will cause hearing damage and elicit physical pain in your ear. Additionally, noises that register at 150 decibels will rupture a human eardrum.

So, don't stick the muzzle in your ear & pull the trigger.:evil:
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That should take care of the tinnitus though. :p

When we were kids (we were on a shooting range and shooting regularly from 4 on), hearing protection was non existent. Cotton balls, cigarette butts, or maybe empty cases stuck ion your ears was about it, if you bothered at all. If mom was around when we were shooting, you usually got "something", but she wasnt there all that much.

We didnt get or see any kind of real hearing protection until we were in our teens, and by then, it was basically too late. Ive had constant tinnitus since grade school, and its been that way ever since. Add to a lot of gunfire, being around lots of other loud, heavy, concussive type noise, and then more years of 12-14 hour days working on and around obnoxiously loud heavy construction equipment and just in that environment in general, and even with wearing the best level of plugs available, your ears are dull and hurt at the end of the day. Without my hearing aids, the world is a pretty quiet place. No bugs, birds, or tree frogs, etc these days. "What" was the second most used word in my vocabulary, just ask my wife. :p

All it takes for me, to be about totally deaf for a day or two is one or two rounds of unprotected/unsurpressed .22LR. Unprotected 357, especially indoors, LOL, that would probably do it for me. Save me a couple of grand every couple of years for aids anyway. At least I can read lips pretty well. :)
 
35 Whelen said:
I have had my hearing tested and the audiologist asked, "I bet you're a right-handed shooter, aren't you?", to which I replied "Yes, how did you know?". He said, "Because you have more hearing loss in your left ear than your right. The left ear of right-handed shooters is exposed to more noise than the right ear due to the position of the head while shooting."
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That’s a theory that doesn’t always hold true, 35 Whelen. I’m in the process of trying to get the VA to buy me a set of hearing aids right now. I drove down to Logan, Utah (about 70 miles south of here) for an appointment with another audiologist yesterday. The first audiologist the VA sent me to just confirmed that I have hearing loss, and that it could have started with my time in the Navy. While the audiologist the VA sent me to yesterday ran different tests to tell the VA how much, and what type(s) of hearing loss I have.
At any rate, because I was struggling with some hearing loss way back in the ‘80s, the company I was working for as a maintenance electrician back then sent me to an audiologist. That audiologist said almost the same thing to me your audiologist said to you. He said, “The results of the tests I ran tell me three things about you. First, you do a lot of shooting, probably with large bore handguns. Second, you’re left-handed. And third, you don’t wear hearing protection when you shoot.”
I told him, “Well doc, one out of three ain’t bad! :D I AM a large bore handgun shooter, but I’m right-handed, and I always wear hearing protection when I’m shooting handguns.”
Of course, that audiologist was in the pocket of the company I was working for back then, so he wasn’t about to admit he was wrong. But I wasn’t trying to get the company to buy me a set of hearing aids anyway. The fact is, I’ve had two audiologists in the past month tell me my hearing loss probably started with my spending better than 1,200 hours underneath two 1,500 horsepower jet turbine engines - Navy choppers, 1968-1972.
However, I won’t be all that upset if the VA decides they won’t buy me a set of hearing aids. I’m going to be 75 years old in a few months - I can probably get by for what time I’ve got left on this Earth without hearing aids. And if I can’t, I’ll buy them myself. Either way, I’m not going to start shooting left-handed, and I will keep putting on my “ears” when I know I’m going to be shooting a handgun. :cool:
 
.38 Special said:
"I'm fine. It's just that everyone mumbles." :neener:

<edit> Seriously, you've been diagnosed with hearing loss - that for some reason you don't want to refer to as "damage" - and your audiologist has told you that it's at least partly due to gunfire. Doesn't that kind of undermine your argument?
Click to expand...

OK, my hearing loss is "damage". There ya go!

35W
 
.308 Norma said:
That’s a theory that doesn’t always hold true, 35 Whelen. I’m in the process of trying to get the VA to buy me a set of hearing aids right now. I drove down to Logan, Utah (about 70 miles south of here) for an appointment with another audiologist yesterday. The first audiologist the VA sent me to just confirmed that I have hearing loss, and that it could have started with my time in the Navy. While the audiologist the VA sent me to yesterday ran different tests to tell the VA how much, and what type(s) of hearing loss I have.
At any rate, because I was struggling with some hearing loss way back in the ‘80s, the company I was working for as a maintenance electrician back then sent me to an audiologist. That audiologist said almost the same thing to me your audiologist said to you. He said, “The results of the tests I ran tell me three things about you. First, you do a lot of shooting, probably with large bore handguns. Second, you’re left-handed. And third, you don’t wear hearing protection when you shoot.”
I told him, “Well doc, one out of three ain’t bad! :D I AM a large bore handgun shooter, but I’m right-handed, and I always wear hearing protection when I’m shooting handguns.”
Of course, that audiologist was in the pocket of the company I was working for back then, so he wasn’t about to admit he was wrong. But I wasn’t trying to get the company to buy me a set of hearing aids anyway. The fact is, I’ve had two audiologists in the past month tell me my hearing loss probably started with my spending better than 1,200 hours underneath two 1,500 horsepower jet turbine engines - Navy choppers, 1968-1972.
However, I won’t be all that upset if the VA decides they won’t buy me a set of hearing aids. I’m going to be 75 years old in a few months - I can probably get by for what time I’ve got left on this Earth without hearing aids. And if I can’t, I’ll buy them myself. Either way, I’m not going to start shooting left-handed, and I will keep putting on my “ears” when I know I’m going to be shooting a handgun. :cool:
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Wont Medicare pay for the bulk of them? They do mine. Im still out about $1K with the copay, but thats still better than the $4k or so they would be otherwise.
 
trackskippy said:
Wont Medicare pay for the bulk of them?
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Yeah, Medicare probably would pay for the bulk of hearing aids if I decided to go that way. According to my VA rep though, if the VA picks up the cost, they'll pay for everything, and probably give me a small disability payment (which I never asked for) as well.
As I said though - I'm not all that worried about it. If the VA won't buy me a set of hearing aids, I might buy them myself. Besides, if my wife and I couldn't afford them, all it would take to pay for them is selling off a few of the guns we never use anymore. We're both at the age we should be unloading a few things (including some guns) we don't need anymore anyway. :thumbup:
 
I got it right when I was asked about my hearing ability at the first hearing test I ever took. The tech asked how my hearing was and I told him I was half deaf. When I stepped out of the lab booth he agreed telling me I was right and that I actually was half deaf. My ability to hear high frequency tones was gone. Driving too many tractors, shooting to much with no hearing protection, and beating on too much steel with big hammers had done me in. I guess it could have been worse as my brother-in-law, a jet engine mechanic in the air force in the '60's, introduced me to hearing protection by giving me a set of muffs. I was amazed at much more pleasant it was to shoot my '06 with muffs.

When I purchased my first 357 revolver I took it to work with me and at the end of a long day I stopped off in a calichi pit to shoot it. I was tired but eager to see what it would do so I set up a target against a wall of the pit, loaded up, and let fly, completely forgetting to put on my muffs. Holy cow and little fishes, I though I had ruptured my eardrums with that first shot and my ears rang for days afterwards. Lesson learned. Pay attention and don hearing protection before shooting.

Ears are like eyes. You only get two of each in your lifetime and there is no replacement so take care of them.
 
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