Draw your weapon to fire or to scare away?

Impure client, those situations are not the same as the one in the OP. My state has a law allowing deadly force to prevent carjacking. No, I would NOT pull the gun to try to scare the guy away. And yes, I would wait to see if I thought he actually had a way to get into the car. If all he's doing is tugging, no I don't use deadly force. When he breaks a window, I will act to stop his actions.

For the two joggers, AGAIN, it is entirely possible to imagine circumstances where it's bad. But the vast majority of the time it won't be. You are ASSUMING again. "Your honor, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, two guys were flanking me quickly so I shot them."

This is still a long way from "I was in fear of my safety and I felt that the only possible thing I could do was use deadly force to stop their actions."

I look for ways to NOT have to shoot people. You are looking for ways where you can apply the worst possible outcome to a vague situation to rationalize how you CAN. This is not only illegal, it's unethical and immoral.

I look for ways to NOT have to shoot people. You are looking for ways where you can apply the worst possible outcome to a vague situation to rationalize how you CAN.

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+1

Thank you.

As long as we're making up scenarios to prove our points...

Some scummy guy who hasn't bathed since the vietnam war comes up to you with his hands in his pockets and says "give me some money."

Do you
A) draw your weapon because his hands were in his pockets and he approached you and couldn't possibly have any intention other than to murder you and rape your corpse.

B) say no.

The above scenario happens to me at least twice a month. To date I've never had to draw my weapon. I'm still happily un-murdered.

For the two joggers, AGAIN, it is entirely possible to imagine circumstances where it's bad. But the vast majority of the time it won't be. You are ASSUMING again. "Your honor, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, two guys were flanking me quickly so I shot them."

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Pretty crazy interpretations but typical of those who paint themselves into a corner on this site. I think it might be more like ladies and gentlemen of the jury I had two men coming from the brush at converging points at a run so I drew my weapon and announced that I was armed with the expectation of an imminent attack. I did not point it at either man but when they heard the warning they ran back into the brush. I regret disrupting the run of the two gentlemen with the extensive criminal records.
This OK Corral quick draw and fire crap is getting weak. Nobody is endorsing walking around with a gun in your hand, only being aware enough to hopefully see a problem before it becomes close in hand to hand fighting. There are no cookie cutter situations and close attacks can also occur, why try to force them all to be that?
It is all imagination here isn't it.

ladies and gentlemen of the jury I had two men coming from the brush at converging points at a run so I drew my weapon and announced that I was armed with the expectation of an imminent attack. I did not point it at either man but when they heard the warning they ran back into the brush. I regret disrupting the run of the two gentlemen

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Just hope I'm not on your jury.

This 'everyone is out to get me and I have to protect myself' attitude is fuel for the antis. Please remember that and think about what you post.

I don't pull until deadly force is justified. After I pull, the situation may de-escalate, but I will never, EVER, pull my gun to intimidate, coerce, convince, threaten, negotiate, or persuade. The only thing I use my gun for is deadly force.

Alright I give up, I will let the statistics of the many crimes never committed due only to the presence of a weapon by the victim. Of course all of those people are criminals no better than the perpetrators for the brandishingto some of the posters.
Let me be clear of my view, I don't believe in drawing a weapon and expecting that to be the sole deterrent and believe that ones behavior before and after the weapon is presented as well as the will to use it are major factors in the number of crimes stopped without a shot fired. That said waiting till you are faced with contact with multiple attackers just seems a little beyond fantastic so I guess I can't swallow that one.

Try MJDeckard's formula:


Quote:
I don't pull until deadly force is justified. After I pull, the situation may de-escalate, but I will never, EVER, pull my gun to intimidate, coerce, convince, threaten, negotiate, or persuade.

In one or two states, it's simply necessary that force be justified.

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Finally a consensus. The main difference in the last 100 + posts is perception, that indeed is subject to a jury if you are brought to trial.
I can think of few posts in this thread that have suggested presentation as the sole deterrent to attack and I think most understand what the end result can be.
We come here and split hairs when there are 50 states with many jurisdictions and many different laws so my guess is there won't be total agreement on what is and isn't.
With that I would say be confident in your state and local laws and understand the responsibilities of carrying a gun.

Be safe

And yes, I would wait to see if I thought he actually had a way to get into the car. If all he's doing is tugging, no I don't use deadly force. When he breaks a window, I will act to stop his actions.

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So you don't see any middle ground between doing nothing and shooting the man? By drawing and holding it on your lap you save your window and the man's life.

"Your honor, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, two guys were flanking me quickly so I shot them."

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Another leap. Drawing is not shooting. Simply drawing a firearm is not "using deadly force." You continually conflate the two.

I look for ways to NOT have to shoot people. You are looking for ways where you can apply the worst possible outcome to a vague situation to rationalize how you CAN. This is not only illegal, it's unethical and immoral.

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Wrong. He, and your other opponents, are looking for ways in which, by drawing earlier, they eliminate the need to actually shoot. Your way gives less chance for that.

:
I look for ways to NOT have to shoot people. You are looking for ways where you can apply the worst possible outcome to a vague situation to rationalize how you CAN.

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+1

Thank you.

As long as we're making up scenarios to prove our points...

Some scummy guy who hasn't bathed since the vietnam war comes up to you with his hands in his pockets and says "give me some money."

Do you
A) draw your weapon because his hands were in his pockets and he approached you and couldn't possibly have any intention other than to murder you and rape your corpse.

B) say no.

The above scenario happens to me at least twice a month. To date I've never had to draw my weapon. I'm still happily un-murdered.
__________________
Still happily un-murdered.

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+2 but with a note....

dont let that fact of this happening to you make you complacent...just because it has not happened yet does not mean it will never happen.....

as a society we have to stay villigant but also stay peaceful every chance we get....

dont let that fact of this happening to you make you complacent...just because it has not happened yet does not mean it will never happen.....

as a society we have to stay villigant but also stay peaceful every chance we get....

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Good advice.

Prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

No, there isn't any grey area. Deadly force is the only force I use. If deadly force is not justified, I don't pull. Deadly force is complicated enough without throwing in all kinds of 'what ifs' about shoving, grabbing, and holding. For me, force has one color, one standard. I don't split it up into degrees.

Who said anything about a grey area? Using deadly force is "using deadly force." Drawing a weapon from a holster is not "using deadly force."

All your talk but you won't clarify when the line is crossed so you stay on the comfortable side of the argument.
I will ask again, do you wait till the attacker has made physical contact or if not what are your indicators?
If there are multiple possible attackers do you wait for them all to show their hand?
The world is dieing to know how to do it right and legal in all of the United States.

A man meets you in a dark alley.

1. He steps in front of you.
2. He lifts his shirt.
3. He grasps the pistol in his waistband.
4. He pulls the pistol out of his waistband.
5. He points it at you.
6. He aims.
7. He begins to pull the trigger.
8. The pistol fires.
9. The bullet strikes you.

At what point does it stop being "too early" to draw? And how fast can you determine that, and draw, and fire? Can you do it faster than the assailant can complete the rest of the steps?

I only would draw my weapon if i tend on using it, cuz trying to "scare" them idea wont work you gotta have the look that your gonna use it, not to scare. if your life means that much to you- you are gonna shoot, this is only in a life/death/serious injury situation. Make sure you evaluate the situation and make a very good judgement before you decide to unholster your weapon.

The point isn't to scare them, it's to stop them. And sometimes the most effective way to stop them might be to draw a little sooner rather than waiting until it's time to shoot.

If you draw your gun without the intent to use it, you have committed aggravated assault.

DRZinn, the....step by step what if you wrote out has nothing to do with earlier situations posted. A better question might be; why did you go down the dark alley in the first place?

The ANSWER is the same as I have said three times now. When I reasonably believe that I am in danger of serious bodily injury or death, I will act to stop the actions of the person trying to hurt me. It is not the same in any two situations. Just because a bad guy is showing me his gun doesn't mean he intends to use it. In every situation, you must use your judgment to decide whether or not you are in danger. If I draw before I am in fear of my life, I now have to explain to the police why it was necessary. I have become the aggressor. They will not arrest the other guy for looking sinister, they will arrest ME for aggravated assault.

Carrying a gun doesn't give you the ability OR the authority to do anything you couldn't do UNARMED except to use deadly force. SERIOUSLY, some of you guys act like you have waited your whole life for a chance to get to draw on someone, and will use any chance you can to finally get to do it. Take some law classes. Talk to your D.A. LEARN THE LAW. Read "In the Gravest Extreme" By Massad F. Ayoob.

If you 'think you might' be in danger' is not good enough. You must 'know you are' in danger, to the degree that you can persuade the D.A. and the jury (through your lawyer) that you had no other option. Just because we would rather be judged by twelve than carried by six doesn't mean we shouldn't do absolutely everything we can to avoid either.

Use the minimum force necessary to neutralize the threat, up to and including deadly force. Don't draw unless deadly force is authorized. Don't shoot unless no lesser force works or is practicable.

Aw hell, why not.
Ninjas notwithstanding, you've got no chance against 4 young toughs if you wait until they are within arms length.
If your Spidey Sense is going off, you better listen.

What I'm amused about in this thread is the indiscriminent use of "imminent danger". Are you guys thinking, "these teens were probably just going to shove me around and feel up my GF."? You know, boys will be boys. Or maybe they're only going to punch me a couple of times, I've had worse. Or perhaps, "Darn, I'm on the ground and they're kicking me in the head and torso, I think that last one ruptured my spleen. My GF is screaming.....just take my wallet.......I'd better pull my gun.........but they haven't showed any weapon........ I won't go to jail, will I?........they didn't take my wallet.....I'm unconscious......oh snap, I'm dead......

If you draw your gun without the intent to use it, you have committed aggravated assault.

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Thanks for the legal definition, which no doubt applies in all 50 states. I, however, am discussing common sense, not the law. There is ever less in common.

step by step what if you wrote out has nothing to do with earlier situations posted.

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The point is, at the moment he steps in front of you, even at the moment he lifts his shirt, you have no reason to use deadly force. Just like when the teenagers started flanking the pedestrian with his wife he had no reason to use deadly force. What you, in the hypothetical I laid out, and the pedestrian in real life do have is a damn good reason to be ready to use deadly force.

Why did you go down the dark alley in the first place?

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I work in a restaurant and have to use the back entrance. Or I'm poor and my apartment is down that alley. Or I like dark alleys. Who cares? Let's say it happens on the street in broad daylight.

You must 'know you are' in danger, to the degree that you can persuade the D.A. and the jury (through your lawyer) that you had no other option.

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If I know I am in danger, I'm probably already firing. Here's a question for you: What's the real difference between having a gun but not carrying it, and carrying it but not drawing it? None, really. Do you carry only if you're going to go into dark alleys?

I understand neither the question nor why you are asking it.

You have a gun. You carry it because you know that there are bad people who will do you harm if you do not prevent it, and the gun is a method to prevent it.

You carry a gun. You draw the gun because you know that a particular action by someone is likely a pretext for doing you harm, and the gun is a method to prevent it.

What I'm getting at is that both the action of carrying a gun and the action of drawing the gun are logical steps in preparation for (if needed) actually firing the gun.

If when you say 'pretext' you actually mean indicator, it must be an indicator that puts me in reasonable fear of serious bodily injury or death.

I carry at all times I am legally allowed to. There need not be a threat for me to carry. There absolutely MUST be a threat for me to draw. They are two different things.

When I draw, I am planning to fire. Period. If, AS I AM BRINGING THE GUN UP TO FIRE, something that happens changes my mind, I will not fire. From there, it's "STOP!! DROP THE WEAPON!!" If they comply, I do not fire. "FACE DOWN ON THE GROUND, HANDS BEHIND YOUR HEAD!!" If they do anything other than comply, the deadly force switch is back on. I get behind them, check left and right, and continue to cover them while I call the police.

This process in itself is already plenty complicated in real life. No good can come from making it MORE complicated. If the law and common sense are two different things to you, you need to learn more about one, the other, or both.