There is an article on "center mass" in Guns America

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gym

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http://forums.gunsamerica.com/yaf_postst14_The-Center-Mass-Myth-and-Ending-a-Gunfight.aspx
I thought it was worth a look, as some of the comparisons just appear to be nonsense to me, see what you think, here is an example,

"Pasted" "This pertains to stopping a threat"- or "stopping power"

With handguns, and with expanding bullets, it is even more unpredictable, but through years of study I have developed a general formula, subject to the above mentioned unpredictable circumstances.




•2-3 hits with a .45
•4-6 with a .40
•5-8 with a 9mm
Triggernometry
The "Center Mass" Myth and Ending a Gunfight
By Jim Higginbotham
 
10 or so years ago, the sheriff in the county I grew up in retired. The clear frontrunner to replace him was his chief deputy, a great guy who had worked his way up from the streets, and had worked in the county for 15 years in various positions for the SO.

He was interviewed by the local TV station, and was asked about a shooting that he was involved in circa 1988. The cute little reporter asked the following question:

"Deputy _______, in 1988? you were involved in a shooting with a [criminal]. You shot him 6 times. Why?"

"Well, ma'am, in 1988? we carried Smith and Wesson .357 Magnum revolvers, and they only hold 6 rounds. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting until you're out of bullets."

That's the advice I live my life by. Take from it what you will.
 
This was linked here earlier and I gave it a read. Since I don't have a pile of statistics next to me it's hard to assess the validity of his remarks, but when he says a BG walked through 5 .357 hollowpoints and kept on, I have to be skeptical. There are outliers, sure, and you might just have bad luck, but if handguns were that ineffective, somebody would have noticed a lot earlier.
 
I've seen instances of .50 caliber hits and the guy lived. All depends on where they are hit and how much will to live they have. Ever see the movie or read the book "Blackhawk Down"? A driver of a HumVee was hit with an RPG grenade. The round didn't explode, but was embedded in his body and he was still alive. Not sure if he survived, but we are talking about a HUGE projectile. Bottom line is NO handgun is a "death ray", and keep shooting until the bad guy is no longer a threat...ie DEAD.
 
Most of the cases he refers to are flukes. If you look hard enough, you could probably find someone who took a 308 to the head, then killed the guy who shot him. But that's not the norm. and it doesn't make the 308 insufficient.
 
You disagree? You are gonna to "shoot to wound"? Hope you have a pine box picked out.

You just posted on a public forum (admissable in court) that you intend to kill any bad guy that poses a threat to you. Hope you have a nice cell picked out.

I intend to shoot to stop the threat. It may or may not result in death (I understand that I am employing deadly force), but my intent is to STOP, not kill.

I'm sure you can tell the difference between the two statements. I will just assume you meant to say "stop".....:rolleyes:
 
"OH GOOD GRIEF......."

You disagree? You are gonna to "shoot to wound"? Hope you have a pine box picked out.

If you don't see the difference between saying "I shot him to kill him" and "I shot him to stop him", I'll give you a hint. One statement will probably be used by your defense attorney to help you. The other will be used by the prosecutor to convict you. Care to guess which is which?
 
•2-3 hits with a .45
•4-6 with a .40
•5-8 with a 9mm

shocker. a relative "old timer" espousing that .45 is anywhere from 2-4 times more "powerful" or "effective" or has 2-4 times the "stopping power" (bunk myth) as anything else out there. i don't know your favorite flavor, but from the outside, this looks like a feeble attempt to justify your favorite caliber (.45). for every scenario you list where people are hit dozens of times and lived, there are just as many, if not more scenarios where on shot stopped the threat. the whole thing seems pretty anecdotal.

Bobby
 
My my my...sounds like a lot of amateur Ayoobs in this thread. I am NOT going to be "politically correct" on a gun forum. I am using a weapon that is, by it's very design, intended to KILL. I am NOT going to mince words on a gun forum. And I doubt very much if I did have to shoot and KILL a bad guy, the shysters would come on the High Road Forums and use this thread as some kind of evidence against me. Sometimes you guys go so far overboard with your fear of shysters it's laughable. Never saw so much damn hair splitting as what goes on here. :rolleyes:
 
Well, dead is stopped in the vast majority of cases.

The fact one is using lethal force implies the willingness to inflict lethal wounds. And, as I am sure DeputyRet would confirm, all police or civilian self-defense training involves placing shots in areas where they are likely to cause mortal wounds.

Of course, if you're really smart and do like any competent attorney in the world would advise, you don't say anything other than providing identification and confirming it is yours. The police will come to their own conclusions, so don't explain, don't excuse, don't do anything. In this way, you not only protect your interests in any possible criminal proceedings, you haven't supplied any ammunition for any possible civil actions.
 
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My my my...sounds like a lot of amateur Ayoobs in this thread. I am NOT going to be "politically correct" on a gun forum. I am using a weapon that is, by it's very design, intended to KILL. I am NOT going to mince words on a gun forum. And I doubt very much if I did have to shoot and KILL a bad guy, the shysters would come on the High Road Forums and use this thread as some kind of evidence against me. Sometimes you guys go so far overboard with your fear of shysters it's laughable. Never saw so much damn hair splitting as what goes on here.

Something else you'll see here is that most don't take kindly to internet bravado and proud claims of wanting to kill someone. That kind of talk is something the Mods take very seriously. Just something to keep in mind.
 
"Something else you'll see here is that most don't take kindly to internet bravado and proud claims of wanting to kill someone. That kind of talk is something the Mods take very seriously. Just something to keep in mind."

No bravado in anything I said. Just facts. And SHOW ME where I said I "WANTED TO KILL SOMEONE"!! Cripes, never thought I'd see so much spin being used on a gun forum. If you don't keep shooting 'till the bad guy is dead, then DON'T SHOOT AT ALL. Run away or flash a peace sign or hide behind your girlfriend, whatever. But if you use that silly "shoot to stop the threat", I'd sure like to know HOW you are gonna decide that the threat is stopped (and doesn't return) in the real world. Are you gonna walk up and poke the guy with your foot? Lean down and say "hey mister, do you still wanna kill me"? If he's not DEAD, then you could easily end up with some rather nasty bullet holes in you at close range. Look....leave the lawyer talk for the courtroom. We are all adults here (I hope!) and we all know what to say and when to say it and NOT say it. Read what TexasBill posted. It pretty much nails it.
 
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I think Jim just wanted to show that he had a lot of experience in these matters. I believe that more people were accidentally killed with a 22 than any other round, at least it used to be. And I carry a 45 now only because there are small, lighweight 45's, but for 22 years in NY I carried a 38, and a 380, and never worried about the 5 or 7 rounds not being enough. It seems that in the early 90's when everyone decided that it was necessary to carry 15-20 round clips with 2 spares, all of a sudden we needed to be prepared for a gang of ninjas to appear. I don't think that anyone is going to have a chance to fire off 20 -50 rounds of ammo in a real gunfight, like a robbery, it's more likelly going to be 2 or 3 rounds, and that's it. Just my observation
 
DeputyRet said:
If you don't keep shooting 'till the bad guy is dead, then DON'T SHOOT AT ALL.

What if you shoot a bg and he falls down but is not dead? Are you going to go up and administer the "coup de grace"? I understand that just because someone is on the ground does not mean that they can't shoot back, but a jury will not likely be composed of individuals that see things exactly the way you do. It may not seem like a big deal to say shoot to kill vs shoot to stop but it may end up that way if you like it or not.
 
Are you gonna walk up and poke the guy with your foot? Lean down and say "hey mister, do you still wanna kill me"?
How about, keep your distance, keep an eye on the threat while calling the cops or asking someone else to. Unless you're an LEO, once the threat has stopped, your defensive firing MUST stop, unless you want to risk spending MANY years behind bars.
Calm down.
I agree. The chest-thumping is getting on my nerves.
 
Curious...

There is a well known video in training circles in which a Highway Patrol officer shoots an armed subject 5 times “center mass” (this is not my assessment but the statement of his immediate supervisors which are interviewed on the full version of the hour long tape) with his 4” .357 Magnum revolver firing hollow point ammunition. All 5 hits failed to do the job and the subject was able to fire one round which struck the officer in the armpit. That round wondered around in the chest cavity and found his heart. The officer unfortunately died at the scene and his attacker is alive today.
I've seen the 'training video' complete with interview with the attacker. This abbreviated account is not quite complete.

The armed subject was shot five times with shots from a .357 Magnum revolver. I cannot remember the actual ammunition used; I believe it was in fact .357 Magnum ammo. The five hits did hit the subject's torso, but not what I'd call 'center mass'; most hits were below the ribcage and none were in the central area of the heart. It should be noted the subject was/is a very obese man and his fat provided a partial 'body armor' effect. Further, the subject was under the influence of methamphetimines (as I remember) and didn't immediately feel the effects of the shots.

By the time the backup troops arrived, the attacker was unconscious and incapable of presenting a threat.

The attacker did survive his wounds. It took a couple serious surgeries and some time to recover.

The officer involved was killed by a freak accident. The one round - .22 long rifle fired from a North American Arms revolver - bounced off the officer's upper arm bone, penetrated the left armpit and ruptured the aorta. The officer was aware and active, calling on his radio until he lost consciousness and died from blood loss.

I'm not sure what to make of this opinion piece. Higgenbotham has some valid points and ideas, but his raw data strikes me as selected. For instance:
...the subject was hit 106 times, but 55 of those hits were ruled by the coroner to be each lethal in and of themselves...
That statement is self-contradictory. Unless the suspect was hit fifty-five times simultaneously, the first fifty-four were in fact, not lethal. One of those rounds might have killed the suspect given time, but none of them did at the time.

Also, in the case of the suspect being shot 106 times, what was the time delay in the incident?

I've read one or two incidents werein the suspect was hit multiple times without effect. Upon investigation, most hits were peripheral and not serious injuries.

Still, there are those very strange times. I'll still bet on a big caliber, heavy bullet and good bullet placement.

I'll agree there are no death rays. Not yet, anyway. But I don't agree one has to shoot every adversary twelve times in the heart and four shots in the motor nerve center of the brain.
 
"How about, keep your distance, keep an eye on the threat while calling the cops or asking someone else to. Unless you're an LEO, once the threat has stopped, your defensive firing MUST stop, unless you want to risk spending MANY years behind bars."

How about eliminating the danger in the first place? A dead bad guy isn't gonna zombie out and come back to life. If you are defending yourself or loved ones you don't stop and count how many rounds you've fired into the bad guy because you are worried about what a jury will do to you. If you are worried about lawsuits trade in the gun for peppergas or some other non-lethal weapon.

I'm still waiting for a description of how you are going to establish that "the threat has stopped" without endangering yourself or others.
 
I'm still waiting for a description of how you are going to establish that "the threat has stopped" without endangering yourself or others.

Well, until the situation happens, you aren't going to know. Being prepared, alert, and trained to the extent that you are comfortable owning a firearm for self defense means that you accept the challenge of dealing with such situations on the spot. If the bad guy is crawling away, let him crawl. If he had a weapon, try to kick it away if you can do so safely. Whatever. If he's stumbling around, take defensive cover and order him to retreat. Call 911 fast as you can. Do not obstruct the bad guy's route to flee. During deposition, actions like this are defensible.

If the threat increases, you can increase the level of response.
 
How about eliminating the danger in the first place? A dead bad guy isn't gonna zombie out and come back to life.
So, an execution is in order? Good luck with that. Let us know how it works out for you.
I'm still waiting for a description of how you are going to establish that "the threat has stopped" without endangering yourself or others.
Again, with feeling this time:
[K]eep your distance, keep an eye on the threat while calling the cops or asking someone else to.
 
With handguns, and with expanding bullets, it is even more unpredictable, but through years of study I have developed a general formula, subject to the above mentioned unpredictable circumstances.
.2-3 hits with a .45
•4-6 with a .40
•5-8 with a 9mm
Triggernometry
The "Center Mass" Myth and Ending a Gunfight
By Jim Higginbotham
:evil:As long as we're in the argumentative mode, I believe it should be:

3-4 with a .45
5-6 with a .40
6-8 with a 9mm
1 hit with a TOW
 
AW gotta love the internet warrior types and the lawyer types and the other types , whew this one went south way faster than norm.
Happy monday to the survivors.
 
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