Cartridge conversion--can I do this?

Not doable...sorry!

The circumference on the Uberti RM is greater, the ratchet area is shorter and the gas ring won't work on your 51.

You could always have someone turn the back off of your factory cylinder and run a reamer through it. You will not have throats and Heel base ammo will shoot the best. When I do these I cut a nice long forceing cone in the barrel. I have done quite a few and they shoot well with proper (read this as correct period Heel Base ammo) ammunition.

The kirst cylinder is made of too hard a material for a roll stamp. Walt tried and using softer material complicated the product which would have raised the price.
By the way there are many documented examples of "gunsmith" conversions without roll stamped naval scenes.

Remember that the Kirst is rated for "cowboy loads" meaning that those smokeless loads are approved and Walt has liabilty insurance. Your cut down percussion cylinder is not......

HH

I can't answer your opening question. But as to your second, I don't believe gunsmiths were doing conversions outside the Colt factory. The term conversion and the fact that there are conversion kits for replica guns causes some confusion.
It was explained to me that back in 1871 Colt wasn't converting cap-n-ball guns. They took an existing design and modified it. This allowed them to manufacture cartridge firing revolvers without having to to re-tool the whole factory. This was simply a makeshift solution until they had a proper cartridge gun ready for issue (the 1873).

That said, you may want to wait a while before altering a perfectly good BP handgun. I think these cartridges, with their shiny brass cases and all, are just a passing fad. Before you know it people will be back to using proper fire arms.

Be safe and shoot straight.

Hoof Hearted said:

Not doable...sorry!

By the way there are many documented examples of "gunsmith" conversions without roll stamped naval scenes.

HH

Click to expand...

Lots of Frontier documented "gunsmith conversions" in magazines and books, just have to look! See the latest Guns of the Old West for Walt's recreation of Buffalo Bills documented 1851 conversion.

The frontier gunsmith might not have a lathe but there were plenty of armouries in "civilized" areas that with steam power and that Edison invention would make parts to order.........

very common. theres a nice example of a converted walker or 1st model dragoon in northern mexico. the percussion cylinder that left the colt factory with it was used to convert it to
rimfire
44 cf henry/44 colt
45 sw

the only parts that changed was the hammer, and they simply got a new hammer for each conversion to allow for firing pin changes.

Most of the 1860 "long cylinder" conversions are credited to Mexico.
Try checking out Adlers book "Metallic Cartridge Conversions".

Here's a gunsmith named Bob Millington that does custom conversions.
Maybe Hoof Hearted knows him?

http://armsportllc.net/index.htm

About ArmSport LLC

Robert L. Millington "Bob" of ArmSport specializes in converting original and reproduction cap and ball percussion revolvers to metallic cartridges. He handcrafts the parts for each gun and custom fits the parts on an individual gun basis. Bob makes the new cylinders from solid steel stock as well as the loading gates, ejector housing and other parts as necessary for each gun. Because Bob believes in quality, no castings are used. Each cartridge conversion is made to your specifications such as caliber, barrel length and loading gate. Bob strives to make each conversion as authentic as possible both in looks and in the way it operates.
Bob also enjoys restoring original cartridge conversions and engraving. For more information about cartridge conversions, restoration work or engraving, contact Bob at Armsport.

http://armsportllc.net/ArmSport_LLC.htm

Click to expand...

A free Zaba search shows that there's someone by that same name living 15.9 miles away in Brighton, CO. The record was created in 2008. If he was still gunsmithing then one would think that he would want to be found or would update his website.

ROBERT L MILLINGTON
3080 165TH
BRIGHTON, CO 80602
(303) 451-7212

Bob's work is outstanding! I have two very nice examples of his Remington thin plate conversions in my collection.

He took a hiatus a couple years ago to build his wife a new home and he has taken up firearms engraving (quite good at it from what I understand). I'm not sure what his conversion work load is like but he has a neighbor that sends me guns..............

HH

Here's an older Pietta that I put a Kirst in and reprofiled the grip with a patina'd finish. Still has the rammer for that frontier gunsmith look........

There ya go

Don't want to hijack but just trying to understand. Hoof Hearted, if you just cut the back of a cap and ball cylinder for a loading gate ring and bore the chambers through won't you cut away the ratchet teeth?

Before:


After:


Seems like there's not much tooth left after boring through. Wouldn't you need to install a new ratchet on the back of the cylinder that has the teeth between the chambers and use a two pronged ratchet hand?

Nope!

I can't answer your opening question. But as to your second, I don't believe gunsmiths were doing conversions outside the Colt factory. The term conversion and the fact that there are conversion kits for replica guns causes some confusion.
It was explained to me that back in 1871 Colt wasn't converting cap-n-ball guns. They took an existing design and modified it. This allowed them to manufacture cartridge firing revolvers without having to to re-tool the whole factory. This was simply a makeshift solution until they had a proper cartridge gun ready for issue (the 1873).

That said, you may want to wait a while before altering a perfectly good BP handgun. I think these cartridges, with their shiny brass cases and all, are just a passing fad. Before you know it people will be back to using proper fire arms.

Be safe and shoot straight.

Click to expand...

Nope. Lots of misinformation there. There were lots of conversions done outside the Colt factory. This is well documented. I would suggest a proper book on the subject like Dennis Adler's "Metallic Cartridge Conversions".

Colt was indeed doing cartridge conversions from the late 1860's, when the Rollin White Patent expired and for many years after. Nearly every percussion model they made was converted at one time or another. There are even original samples of Paterson belt models that were converted to fire cartridges. A percussion gun could be converted to fire cartridges for a fraction of the cost of a new Peacemaker and these were available, as well as factory built cartridge conversions, long before the Model P became widely available.

Colt's first dedicated cartridge gun was not the 1873 but the 1871-1872 Open Top model. This design was based heavily on the 1860 but was a purpose-built cartridge gun, not a conversion. Its "S-lug" barrel would find itself onto the Richards-Mason conversions on the 1860 after they ran out of percussion barrels. This model was offered to the Army in 1871, chambered in .44 rimfire. The Army rejected it, wanting a .45caliber cartridge and a solid frame. William Mason went to work and a few months later the Single Action Army was born, which was actually late 1872. The Army made the 1873 .45Colt its standard issue sidearm and the rest is history. Only a few thousand Open Tops were produced.

Here's a Cimarron Open Top replica .44Colt. You will notice that it has no conversion ring.




PS, Bob Millington's work is first rate. His work has been featured in numerous movies, including several Tom Selleck westerns. I emailed him back in early 2007 and it was an 18month backlog then. He quoted me $900-$1300 for basic conversions, with or without ejectors. He only works on later model Colt percussion guns. I see that others can clue in on his current status.

ewb45acp said:

That said, you may want to wait a while before altering a perfectly good BP handgun. I think these cartridges, with their shiny brass cases and all, are just a passing fad. Before you know it people will be back to using proper fire arms.

Click to expand...

I have a friend who is a flintlock maker........he say's,"these newfangled percussion caps are just a FAD".........I like to shoot my AK's while he is around

gunboat57 said:

Don't want to hijack but just trying to understand. Hoof Hearted, if you just cut the back of a cap and ball cylinder for a loading gate ring and bore the chambers through won't you cut away the ratchet teeth?

Seems like there's not much tooth left after boring through. Wouldn't you need to install a new ratchet on the back of the cylinder that has the teeth between the chambers and use a two pronged ratchet hand?

Click to expand...

Gunboat,

Since you're a CAD jockey go look here for what an complete conversion cylinder model would look like. It will make more sense to you.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,35765.msg458177.html#msg458177

As you've figured out the ratchet is not ideal and with the 1871 design they began refining it. By the time they hit the 1873 they had the ratchet and hand working very well together. The two stage hand actually works relatively well even with the converted percussion cylinders.

The thread I am directing you to was discussing the limits of the rims and why the .44 Colt was the only cartridge that fits. If you browse other posts I believe there are other instances of conversion cylinder models and discussions well. There is also a current thread talking about the '72 Open Top in .44 Rimfire.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,35624.msg494427.html#msg494427

That is actually an Open Top cylinder in that one, not a conversion. You can see it's sort of a blend of the old and the new. it's a long thread read through it.

Later,
Mako

P.S. what version of Solidworks are you using?