How Many Carry a 1911 with FMJ Ammo?

I carry JHPs in all my carry guns because I like to stack the deck in my favor, rather than adhere to hidebound notions or justify poor feeding performance.

If it can't feed JHP, fix it or sell it, or don't use it for a carry gun. There are so many options out there that there's no excuse not to use JHP.

I love these arguments.

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Aren't they great?!

I wouldn't feel undergunned with ball ammo, but my 1911 feeds JHP reliably, so that's what I go with.

SharpsDressedMan said:

I like my guns to work when they are dirty; just in case.................................

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Then it's a self created artificial argument.

I clean most of my guns every 1000 rds or so, whether they need it or not.

But my defense guns.....every 100-200, depending on that range session. Ideally, I'd run 1-2 mags thru a cleaned gun to verify all is in order.

Posted by Prosser:
I'm warm and fuzzy on penetration, and, I've shot nearly 500k rounds of 200 grain speer flying ashtrays at 1200 fps.

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You've shot 500,000 "flying ashtray" loads? Seriously?

Who paid for that ammo? Did you load it yourself?

Posted by Prosser:
I'm warm and fuzzy on penetration, and, I've shot nearly 500k rounds of 200 grain speer flying ashtrays at 1200 fps.

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I don't believe it either.

The linked data is drawn from police shootings. They only count torso hits, ie; leg and limb and head hits are not included in the data base. They also toss multiple hits, so this includes only individuals hit and "stopped" with a single shot.

As you can see, the best HP rounds average in the low to mid 90%. The best FMJ rounds average in the low 60% - a 30% decrease in effectiveness.

If your pistol doesn't feed HP's reliably, then you have good reason to use FMJ's. But, (in my opinion), if it does feed HP's then you should use them.


http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=18&Weight=230

According to that, 9mm FMJ has a better chance of stopping someone than .45 FMJ. I'm really suprised by this.

That website I was looking for earlier, thanks for posting it! Just wish they listed 5.7 x 28 as I'm greatly interested in that caliber. Where exactly do they pull that date from?

Hornady FPD TAP 230gr +p which feeds perfectly in my PT1911.

Where exactly do they pull that date from?

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It's from police reports nationwide. It's rather dated now being 10 or 15 years old, so I wouldn't take it to the bank when considering newer hollow-point designs, but it certainly shows a big gap between HP's and FMJ's.

The linked data is drawn from police shootings.

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Actually, it is "data" from Marshall and Sanow. Their study was so unscientific that I do not think any usable information can be drawn from it. They refuse to share the raw data. There is no reason to believe their statistics aren't just completely made up. They won't allow others to interpret the data and reproduce it.

Their study was so unscientific that I do not think any usable information can be drawn from it.

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That same data is available to anyone who wants to use it. It's simply public record data that anyone can access with their own time and money. One can criticize the methodology because the data includes torso hits from people who simply gave up after being shot with sometimes quite negligible wounds, yet even here you'd expect the "wimp factor" to be equal between HP's and FMJ's. Quite clearly it isn't.

The best way to evaluate this data is to ask handgun hunters about their experiences with HP's, round nosed FMJ's and flat-nosed FMJ's (or lead). NOBODY would be surprised to learn that .357 mag handgun deer hunters would nearly unanimously reject round-nosed FMJ's in favor or HP's or flat-nosed rounds (whether lead or jacketed).

Why do handgun hunters not use round nosed FMJ's? Because the deer run away and die somewhere else. Hunters want rounds that kill, er, "stop" an animal as quickly as possible so that the meat can be recovered.

The same rules apply when you are fighting for your life. You want to "stop" an assailant before he inflicts harm on you. HP's do that better than FMJ's.

That same data is available to anyone who wants to use it.

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No they won't let an outside reviewer see their data. From a scientific standpoint, they will not allow verification. If they were attempting to publish this data, it would be rejected because it does not allow for outside review of the collected data. Saying that anyone could collect this data is true, but it would be impossible to tell if it is the same data. A lot of people are still willing to put great faith in M&S data, but generally these people do not understand how scientific data collection and interpretation works.

I am not at all disputing the increased effectiveness of hollow point ammo, nor am I doubting their conclusions. What I am saying is that their study can really not be treated as scientific data, and their study can't be used to reach that conclusion.

I prefer FMJ over JHP because I feel it feeds better. I accept that it is probably less effective than JHP. However, a functioning gun with FMJ is better than a jammed gun with JHP.

You want to "stop" an assailant before he inflicts harm on you. HP's do that better than FMJ's.

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We agree on that, but its hard to stop anyone with a jammed gun.

I do. I figger that if I can't git'r'done with 7 rounds of hardball, I probably can't git'r'done at all...and it's just one less thing to come up in court.

I usually carry hardcast SWC, but when I can't get ahold of those locally I load it with FMJ.

I stopped carrying ball (FMJ) .45 ACP once the state-of-the-art of 1911 magazines reached the point where they permitted consistently reliable feeding with most hollowpoints in my 1911's.

Then, some years later, ball ammunition was no longer generally authorized for off-duty weapons due to concerns about excessive penetration and perforation ("over-penetration") of the intended threat target.

Yes, day in & day out "misses" are probably still more of a potential problem in defensive shooting situations, but then having the potential for even greater penetration of an unintended target with a ball round that missed could arguably be said to be even more of a potential problem, right?

The only time I'd use ball ammunition in a .45 any more was if a particular 1911 was only reliable with it , and/or if it was strictly for range use because the price was significantly lower and made it more affordable for range sessions. (However, I'd still be firing my defensive ammunition/hollowpoints periodically for occasional function-testing of the gun, magazines and the different boxes/cases/lots of the ammunition I used.)

If I owned a 1911 which was only reliable with ball ammunition (for whatever reason was imaginable), it would remain a "range gun", used with ball ammunition ... and I'd use one of my other 1911's which did properly & consistently feed hollowpoints for lawful carry purpose.

We have better options available to us nowadays, in both the design & manufacture of .45 pistols & magazines, as well as improved hollowpoint ammunition (in both feeding and expansion/performance).

I'd use ball ammunition if I were required to do so, obviously, and I wouldn't lose much sleep over it ... but I'm not restricted to that scenario.

Suit yourselves. I do.

No they won't let an outside reviewer see their data.

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It's not "their data". It's public record data from police agencies nationwide. They spent years of time and tons of money gathering that data, so it's not surprising they won't just give it away to anyone who wants a free ride.

We agree on that, but its hard to stop anyone with a jammed gun.

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I haven't found that a problem. Even old GI guns can be "lipped" and have the feed ramp polished to feed hollow points reliably in 30 minutes or less. If I did have a gun that wouldn't feed a particular hollowpoint and I couldn't do the work myself (and didn't want to pay to have it done), I'd look for a hollowpoint that it did feed reliably and use that.

Still, no matter what you use just keep shooting until they fall down.

I prefer FMJ over JHP because I feel it feeds better. I accept that it is probably less effective than JHP. However, a functioning gun with FMJ is better than a jammed gun with JHP.

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How many JHPs have you run through your gun and how many failures have happened?

It's not "their data". It's public record data from police agencies nationwide. They spent years of time and tons of money gathering that data, so it's not surprising they won't just give it away to anyone who wants a free ride.

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Scientists submitting a paper have to submit their data so it can be reviewed and verified by others before being accepted. M&S won't do that. So their data cannot be independently reviewed. Without independent review, you are simply accepting whatever they say is true. If they are biased, then you will never know.

How many JHPs have you run through your gun and how many failures have happened?

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I have run hundreds, and admit they are very reliable. However, at least theoretically, they should be more prone to jamming. It has been my experience that they probably are, but only by a statistically small amount. However, I don't want to get screwed by statistics at the most inopportune time. I know that a gun loaded with FMJ can jam also. By keeping as few variables out of the jamming equation as possible, I hope to decrease my chances of such an event.

I have run hundreds, and admit they are very reliable. However, at least theoretically, they should be more prone to jamming. It has been my experience that they probably are, but only by a statistically small amount. However, I don't want to get screwed by statistics at the most inopportune time. I know that a gun loaded with FMJ can jam also. By keeping as few variables out of the jamming equation as possible, I hope to decrease my chances of such an event.

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What would cause your gun to jam in a way that FMJ would feed and JHP wouldn't? Sounds like you are creating the problem. What gun is it exactly that you carry?

What would cause your gun to jam in a way that FMJ would feed and JHP wouldn't?

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A random feeding problem related to the JHP.

and what would cause that? What gun is it that you carry?

Sometimes a 1911, sometimes a Glock 21.

If I can't get it done with 7 or 8 rounds of FMJ, then I probably can't get it done at all.

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How is this even an argument? Because you think one thing, that is reason to discount something else? That doesn't make any sense. It is illogical. I don't understand this at all.

So because you think you should be good with just 7 rounds of FMJ, that is reason to not use something that is more effective? That is akin to saying that I should be good with just wearing a seatbelt, so I don't need to have airbags. I should be good with just a jacket, so I don't need an umbrella.

I carry FMJ because I think that it is probably more reliable than JHP's even though I haven't had an issue.

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I don't get this either. That is saying, I use something less effective because of an an idea that the thing that is more effective might fail, though it never has before. Really? My car says to use fully synthetic oil, but I think that might fail, so I'm going to use regular non synthetic oil because I think it should be more reliable.

In what world are we in where because of one factor, thing, or idea, that means we can discount other factors!?!

I thought the OP asked what people carried in their 1911s; who would have known that it was really an invitation to a cage-match about what was best.