Jams in pump guns?

I've got an 870 Express barrel that sticks hard when I put Fiocchi shells into it. The go in fine but they need a thump of the recoil pad on the ground to pull the empties out. To me that's bad. It messes up the shooting and it's hell on the extractor hooks. I don't feed it with that ammo any more. Although if I hone out the chamber a little then I may try the Fiocchi again.

On the other hand my Cowboy Action SxS is honed out enough that the same ammo can be shucked out with nothing more than a little over the shoulder jerk of the gun.

i get you, fred. briskly, i understand. however, having to "thump it on the ground" indicates an issue. never had that problem with fiocchi in my gun. even the "sticky" winchesters have taken nothing more than a a bit more "elbow grease" or "brisk", never a strike with the butt on the ground.

and even a 500 VERY gently and they function perfectly

Click to expand...

Maybe you are just so used to the force required to manipulate the 500 that you don't pay any attention to the others or that force seems to be the norm after prolonged use. In my experience the mossberg guns are the absolute roughest feeling contraptions of pump guns. I do agree that the winchesters from the 12's through the 1300's along with the remington wingmasters are smooth as melted butter though.

Fred Fuller said:

Most pumpgun designs don't respond well to being "babied" (i.e., pumped slowly). Rack them briskly however and few will give you any problems. Thus the 'elbow grease' reference...

Click to expand...

This is the correct answer.

In our shotgun classes, we emphasize to the class participants that they must "rack it like they mean it" each and every time. The two most common errors of (pump) shotgun operators are failing to disengage the safety and either "short stroking" or "babying" the slide-action. If you have a pump gun that is smooth as butter and still works fine even if babied, good for you, but this doesn't change the fact that operating the slide forcefully is a good habit to get into. The next shotgun you pick up will probably not be as accommodating.

I grew up hunting small game almost exclusively with a pump action shotgun. One of The best ways to get into the habit of racking the slide like you mean it is to attempt followup shots on fast flying game birds.

Maybe you are just so used to the force required to manipulate the 500 that you don't pay any attention to the others or that force seems to be the norm after prolonged use. In my experience the mossberg guns are the absolute roughest feeling contraptions of pump guns.

Click to expand...

You've apparently never broken one in. I've gotta agree with oneounce on this one. I've never had to be rough with a pump, 870 or 500 or whatever. I do pump 'em sorta briskly when I'm hunting because I'm usually in a hurry, but I can run 'em slower and they'll function.

I'm going to chuck the 0000 in the drill, though, after reading this thread and see if I can smooth the chamber. I polished it some by hand, but didn't do the drill thing. I've inspected it and it looks smooth, but it could have a rust pit or something in there I'm not seeing after 20 years of salt marsh hunting that causes the 3" Winchesters to lock up occasionally. What's weird, though, is the 2 3/4" version of the same load feeds 100 percent fine, so I just figured it was the 3" stuff and avoided it.

My favorite pump action for smoothness is the Ithaca 37 that the BPS takes its design from. My uncle's was well broken in and practically pumped itself. I don't see much difference in all the others. The 500's fore stock has a little more play in it than some, but that doesn't affect function. I'm not sure it'd be the best for deer hunting if you had to use a shotgun for that, though, can be kinda noisy.

I started my pump gun days with an 870 Express, and it was pretty rough. No jams but rough. Bought an old 870 Police and it was smoooooth as glass. I bought an even older Ithaca 37 DSPS from a friend and like MC said, it dang near pumps itself.

It would be the last firearm I ever got rid of. It's so nice to operate and shoot.

I believe what they are saying is just rack the snot out of it.

With the 870, it is not about how hard you rack it. It is about the gun being finicky about the type of shells it likes. STEEL BASED SHELLS HAVE EXTRACTION PROBLEMS ON MANY 870s.

My Benelli M2 will take the shells my 870 chokes on and run them flawlessly.

You would think it should be the other way around. But, it is not.

P.S. I have 8 870s and 4 Benelli M2s

Do you know if the semi-automatic "cousins" of pump guns within the same brands tend to have these same issues, or if for about twice the price they work these kinks out? Also I think reviewers would be less merciful with the autos. They never write that a semi-automatic gun works fine you just need to apply some elbow grease to the handle now and then.

Click to expand...

I have a Winchester 1400, which is the pumpless version of the 1300 pump gun. The only problems I have with it are it chokes on ejection with 7/8 ounce loads occasionally. This is quite obviously because these loads are at the bottom of what will work the gas operated bolt, because it runs fine on 1 ounce dove loads and heavy steel loads. I just avoid the 7/8 ounce stuff. When it does fail to eject, I just reach up to the action, grab the end of the case that's sticking out, and yank it free. I'm back in action. I've never had it stop any worse than this.

My SIL haw a 1300, but I have never fired a round out of it, so I can't really say how it compares. Seems to feed everything HE puts in it, though.

Back to the pump actions. Is this something you can check for in the gun store. I.e. try and get a finger in the barrel and feel around and maybe take a spent shell or snap cap and see what sort of force is required to make the thing work.

Click to expand...

You MIGHT be able to see or feel for anything - what happens is that sometimes - and on the lower price point guns more often than not - there are some unpolished tool mark either in the chamber on on the barrel extension. When a shotgun shell is fired, the case expands to the chamber walls. Brass will then relax and shrink back; the steel cased ones in many instances do not - resulting in difficult extractions and the need to "use some elbow grease"
Chamber polishing is easily done - take a brush and wrap it with 0000 steel wool and a little oil - place it in a rod you can chuck into a cordless drill and go back and forth as long as necessary to make it smoooooooth. If it is the rim stick in the barrel extension, then a Dremel polishing wheel can be used - GENTLY!

I bought an even older Ithaca 37 DSPS from a friend and like MC said, it dang near pumps itself.

Click to expand...

If you think a well broken in 37 almost pumps itself you should try a winchester 1300. They are aluminum framed guns, but were designed to assist the user in manipulation and they truly do almost pump themselves. If you learn to apply a little rearward pull when shooting them the ejection is automatic. There is no need to pump the 1300 you just push the slide back forward.

I'm not inclined to find REALLY cheap or diverse shells to TRY to make it jam, but I cranked through a whole case of imported S&B in my 870 Express in one afternoon without any issues.

You've apparently never broken one in.

Click to expand...

Believe me I've tried, but my main two complaints with mossberg pumps...let's make it three complaints. Number one is that i can (could) physically feel the operation of the clumsy elevator on the rearward and forward action and and this makes for a non smooth feel and action. Number two is that they are extremely noisy loose tolerance contraptions that rattle like beating drums while walking through the woods with them. Number three is the aluminum frames...i do like the aluminum framed winchesters, but they are far superior (and very quiet) shotguns.

I can agree with you on number two, they rattle, not a problem in the duck marsh. But, it's reliable. I've dropped it in the mud more'n once, just wash it off with some salt water and go back shooting again. Take it apart for a thorough cleaning and lubing when I get home. I hunt deer with a rifle or a handgun. Never hunted deer with a shotgun.

I cannot see your point on number 1 and I just bought my third Mossberg a while back, used, a 535. Mine work smooth. The one I bought new smoothed up after about a case of steel shot, about a season's worth when I'm hunting every week like I did back then. The shell elevator on the Mossbergs is one of the reasons to like the gun. No pinched thumbs or jams in the marsh from the shell elevator. I used to cuss that 870 when it would do that to me, finally got rid of it. It was a Wingmaster, too.

The aluminum frame is one thing I LOVE in a pump shotgun that I'm going to use for bird hunting and that includes the Mossbergs, especially teal or doves. I hunt dove with a light 20 SxS or my Winchester 1400 (quite a light gun, also aluminum) anymore, but teal are quick and can come in from low altitude. A heavy gun will slow ya down, great on high passing shots, but those early morning teal can tie you up with a heavy steel receiver.

what about Win 1300s/1200s?

Can someone pipe up about how their Winchester 1200/1300 pump runs the cheap steel-based ammo?

Are you having extraction problems like many 870s have?

I'm thinkin' the locking system, when it unlocks on the 1300, might just cam the round loose before you actually start to pump even if it did stick. Just a thought, not sure.

First time I shot my 870 the forend would "jam up" when shooting steel casing. The solution was to use the force of hitting the recoil pad on my knee while forcing the forend open to eject the shell. I expect it'll break itself in soon enough. Make sure the firearm safety is on and barrel pointed in a safe direction if you do this.

Wapato said:

Do you know if the semi-automatic "cousins" of pump guns within the same brands tend to have these same issues, or if for about twice the price they work these kinks out? Also I think reviewers would be less merciful with the autos. They never write that a semi-automatic gun works fine you just need to apply some elbow grease to the handle now and then.

Click to expand...

This is what I'm wondering about. Why are sticking shells a problem on pump guns, but not (generally) Auto's? Is it simply a matter of manufacturers focusing more attention on the higher priced guns? Or is there something more to it? Does the faster bolt speed of an Auto really help extract the fired shells? I can't see how.

As far as Pump guns being more reliable than Auto's, the posts in this thread would make me feel otherwise. Not trying to pick a fight, but just curious to hear other's thoughts...

good questions.

I'm thinkin' the locking system, when it unlocks on the 1300, might just cam the round loose before you actually start to pump even if it did stick. Just a thought, not sure.

Click to expand...

The bolt rotates and locks into the rear of the chamber via sturdy lugs and is under spring loaded pressure. The spring loaded bolt is constantly holding rearward pressure and whether firing or just pushing the release button the slide moves back. If you just press the release button it wont go fully back, but under recoil and with a bit of practice it will automatically eject the spent hulls every time. I like them a lot even the single pin trigger group is nice, but the darn things have plastic trigger guards. The spring loaded pressure on the bolt is the reason they are so quiet too.

Can someone pipe up about how their Winchester 1200/1300 pump runs the cheap steel-based ammo?

Click to expand...

Never had a problem with any of them I've owned.

I can agree with you on number two, they rattle

Click to expand...

Are the new ones any quieter than the old ones? they supposedly tightened tolerances and made them quieter, but i have not handled one since the 90's.

The shell elevator on the Mossbergs is one of the reasons to like the gun. No pinched thumbs or jams in the marsh from the shell elevator. I used to cuss that 870 when it would do that to me, finally got rid of it. It was a Wingmaster, too.

Click to expand...

I will agree that i have caught the tip of ill fitting gloves in the elevator on an 870, but have never pinched a finger. I don't think the elevator is too much of a bother...after all the mossberg elevator is remington's design and they stopped using it in favor of the 870 type and let mossberg run with it. Like i said it just never felt smooth to me.

This is what I'm wondering about. Why are sticking shells a problem on pump guns, but not (generally) Auto's? Is it simply a matter of manufacturers focusing more attention on the higher priced guns?

Click to expand...

Autoloaders have generous chambers and looser overall tolerances necessary to insure reliable operation under a variety of conditions. My most used wingmaster does not have a problem with cheap steel based shells. I bought an accessory barrel for it in the mid 90's and i have had no problems with it either, but i have not used a lot of cheap shells in that barrel so i may pick up some crap shells just to see.

I have 3 870's and never hada problem with extracting brass or steel. I shoot about 2500 rds a yr out of them combined.

twofifty said:

Can someone pipe up about how their Winchester 1200/1300 pump runs the cheap steel-based ammo?

Are you having extraction problems like many 870s have?

Click to expand...

My 1300 defender never has a problem with any ammo I run through it. My only complaint is that barrels are very hard to get. I would love to have a rifle sighted smooth bore for mine but try to find em and when you do you can buy an 870 with 2 barrels for the about the same price.