10mm?

I spent about 3 years, on and off, debating with myself whether or not to buy a 10mm. Maybe part of me was hopelessly waiting for S&W or Springfield to come out with a polymer 10mm to compete with Glock (I'm still waiting). Maybe part of me was trying to justify my 1911 as an all-around outdoor sidearm, if loaded with proper heavy flat nose +P loads. But every time I put the numbers to paper, the 10mm won hands down against all other common semi-auto cartridges, as well as some common revolver cartridges, when it comes to sectional density and energy, when using heavy hardcast loads from medium-length barrels. Not to mention the firepower of 15+1 rounds...

I finally broke down and bought a Glock 20SF about 2 months ago. I've got a year of black bear hunting, camping, and general "outdoors-ing" to do this year here in Oregon, and I'd like a capable, durable, lightweight sidearm to take along. Plus, the Glock is so ugly and durable, I don't care about getting it scratched up and dirty. Sure, I have a couple of .357 and .44 Magnum revolvers, but they are all heavier, wider, harder for me to shoot quickly and accurately, and hold MUCH less ammo than the Glock. 15 rounds of Double Tap 230-grain WFNGC @ 1,120 f/s. on my hip makes me feel a lot better than 6 rounds of any .357 Magnum.

The Glock SF models (which stands for short frame), feel just the slightest bit better in the hand than the regular models. In the G20SF, a few millimeters of width (from back strap to front strap) have been removed, allowing a slightly shorter trigger reach. I believe the Gen3 SF models have the same dimensions as their Gen4 counterparts, when used without any of the add-on back straps.

The Glock's polygonal barrel is not meant to be used with a large amount of lead bullets, but with quality hardcast gas-checked bullets (like the Double Tap referenced above), leading doesn't seem to be an issue with reviewers who have tested it. I've only put 10 or so rounds of this DT through my Glock so far, so I can't give you an accurate impression.

The only real downside I can think of with the Glock 10mm guns, is related to reloading (which is practically a necessity for 10mm). The pressure of the 10mm cartridge, coupled with Glock's rather loose tolerances in the chamber mouth area, give standard factory brass a little "belly" after being fired. I have successfully removed this small bulge from cases simply by running them through my RCBS sizing/de-capping die. But with multiple reloads of high-powered stuff, I'd keep a close eye on this symptom. I plan on using brand new brass for full-power reloads, and the once-fired brass for plinking loads. As others have mentioned, aftermarket barrels with much better chamber support can be found for the Glock 10mm guns, helping your brass last longer, and allowing you to shoot any kind of bullet you want.

The 10mm is a great round, with huge potential as an outdoor cartridge when loaded to it's top levels. And, as mentioned, 10mm ammo can often be found on gun store shelves when 9, 38, 40, 45, 357, and 44 are gone.

I've been a 10mm fan since Smith came out with the 1006, since then I've had a G29 and currently have a 2007 Dan Wesson CBOB, it's a sweet pistol and makes for a very comfortable CCW for the front range in Colorado. I shoot and carry mine often.

I generally carry a 200 gr. BTB hardcast loaded at 1130 fps and consider it a decent woods load, in a pinch it would probably drop a Moose with a well placed shot if need be. I'd prefer my 4" 629 with 280 gr. BTB at 1150 fps and usually do have that on when in Moose or Brown bear country but the CBOB is a much handier carry then the 629 so if the largest critter is going to be a Black bear or lion I'm usually carrying the CBOB. A 200 gr. XTP at 1150 fps is a good lion load.

For when in the city I can swap a mag and run a 180 gr. Gold Dot at 1150 fps, this makes for a nice shooting load. A 180 XTP at 1200 fps is nice too but that is about the max that I want to push the 10mm 1911.

For plinking I run a 180 gr. bullet at about 950 fps and it's similar to shooting a .45 ACP.

Nobody mentioned Dan Wesson, find one on line if you want one of the nicest 1911's ever made, especially if you reload.

From a 135 gr. to 220 gr. from 1600 fps to 800 fps...it is a nice cartridge if I could only have one pistol it would be a 10mm.

Even though I'm not much of a Glock fan the G20's have a great reputation, if money was tight I'd get one of those or a good used 1006.

To chime in on EAA's customer service, In Dec I sent my 10mm wonderfinish in because the safety broke and the finish was coming off the inside of the slide. The side was not cracked.

When I sent it in they shipped it back about 3 weeks later and nothing was fixed. I called down to them the next day and talked with the lead gun smith. He was not pleasant to deal with but I kept my cool and explained the situation again to him. I sent it back to them. When I got it back I had a ambi safety, the older more squared slide, and adjustable sights. Now I fully agree that I should not have had to send it back to them the 2nd time, I feel that they took good care of me the 2nd time.

The gun is the most accurate one I own. I have never had any malfunction what so ever. And it fits in my hand way better then any gun I have ever had.

So if all you go on is how bad their CS is then you will be missing out on one hell of a good gun. And it has great case support so you will not be putting those smiles on your brass.

As much as I would love a Colt Delta they have worse case support then a Glock. My feelings on a Glock is that I should not have to buy a after market barrel just so I can shoot my gun. The one that comes with the gun should hold up to what it was designed to do.

Dakotared said:

To chime in on EAA's customer service, In Dec I sent my 10mm wonderfinish in because the safety broke and the finish was coming off the inside of the slide. The side was not cracked.

When I sent it in they shipped it back about 3 weeks later and nothing was fixed. I called down to them the next day and talked with the lead gun smith. He was not pleasant to deal with but I kept my cool and explained the situation again to him. I sent it back to them. When I got it back I had a ambi safety, the older more squared slide, and adjustable sights. Now I fully agree that I should not have had to send it back to them the 2nd time, I feel that they took good care of me the 2nd time.

The gun is the most accurate one I own. I have never had any malfunction what so ever. And it fits in my hand way better then any gun I have ever had.

So if all you go on is how bad their CS is then you will be missing out on one hell of a good gun. And it has great case support so you will not be putting those smiles on your brass.

As much as I would love a Colt Delta they have worse case support then a Glock. My feelings on a Glock is that I should not have to buy a after market barrel just so I can shoot my gun. The one that comes with the gun should hold up to what it was designed to do.

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Except, the G20 wasn't designed with the true 10mm Auto cartridge pressures, but rather the lightened version that was the predecessor to the .40 S&W.

If you want popular factory loadings...then the G20 is fine.

If you want big boy performance, the barrel swap is a necessity. But, you can get threading, porting, muzzle brakes, and compensators to accentuate and modify performance. I'd say its worth the coin.

Just FYI the EAA Witness Hunter is a different pistol than the regular full size Witness in 10mm

The full size Witness in 10mm is about an 8" pistol weighing 33oz, the Witness Hunter is a 10" pistol with a 6" barrel weighing 46 ounces. The longer / heavier slide makes a difference in the recoil characteristics and durability of the firearm.

Just FYI the EAA Witness Hunter is a different pistol than the regular full size Witness in 10mm

The full size Witness in 10mm is about an 8" pistol weighing 33oz, the Witness Hunter is a 10" pistol with a 6" barrel weighing 46 ounces. The longer / heavier slide makes a difference in the recoil characteristics and durability of the firearm.

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...yes the EAA is still the same company to deal with....

Dryft said:

I didn't know Rock Island Armory made a 10mm!

Always a good option.

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Yes there is a Rock Island in 10MM and I'm waiting for the call from the LGS that its in.

Ya running a steady diet of the upper end stuff like Underwood's ammo through a Glock is a ticking time bomb.

S&W had one of the strong guns for 10mm but I would like to see over time how the RIA 10mm compares as the chamber of the new RIA is thicker then the old S&W's.

Tho if I was going to get a 10mm I think I would go with a witness because it's a CZ clone and I really like the CZ platform, probably would get the elite or higher because the base model's seem to have a higher chance of problems.

None of the 10mms built on the typical Colt/Browning design are going to be adequate for high pressure loads. Need to buy a dedicated platform or get a revo that shoots a true magnum.

I am a 10mm fan, but autos are good for some things but not platforms for max loading hot cartridges.

Thompsoncustom said:

S&W had one of the strong guns for 10mm but I would like to see over time how the RIA 10mm compares as the chamber of the new RIA is thicker then the old S&W's.

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Chamber thickness, or lack thereof, isn't where the problems come from. Nobody is blowing their chambers up. The brass fails long before the steel. Common problems running very hot rounds in a semi-auto include case failure, either from lack of case support or simply exceeding the strength of the brass around the case head, and then the mechanical effects of recoil on frame and/or slide (or their locking interface lugs or hood).

BigG said:

None of the 10mms built on the typical Colt/Browning design are going to be adequate for high pressure loads.

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I think I understand what you're saying, but 10mm SAAMI pressure is 37.5k, IIRC, and .40 is 35k. So it's only a 7% increase in pressure. And 9+p is at 38.5k - higher pressure than 10mm. 10mm has greater case volume than either, so there's more force, but the peak pressure itself is not higher than several other common handgun calibers that work fine in tilting-barrel designs.

Right. The autos have a feed ramp and unless they make an abominable ramped bbl that imho "#*@^%" the beauty of the Colt Browning design, the brass will fail somewhere long before you hurt the steel.

Here's a question for you 10mm 1911'ers:

I understand that there is some debate on the weight of your recoil spring to balance out how fast/hard the slide racks back, vs how fast/hard it returns to battery, when using full-powered 10mm loads.

But, I stumbled across some conversation somewhere that asked the following question, and I never found an answer to it: if you want to have a heavier recoil spring so that the slide doesn't rack back quite as hard, and you also want a lighter recoil spring to avoid having the slide rack forward too hard, couldn't this be accomplished by leaving the recoil spring just where it is from the factory, and getting a heavier mainspring? This seems like it would be the perfect setup: limiting the backstroke, and leaving the return to battery at a nice light weight. Or is there some part of 1911 operation that would be harmed by having a heavier mainspring?

Heavier mainspring is generally going to cause a heavier trigger pull. That may be OK.

I've also read suggestions about slightly changing the geometry of the slide/hammer interface to provide some additional resistance at the begining of the recoil stroke. Don't know if that's feasible or a good idea, but certainly was interesting to read about.

Not exactly. There are some sources for "real" 10mm ammo, such as Underwood. And finding stuff that's a little spicier than full-power .40 is pretty easy, and .40's themselves can be somewhat hard on pistols.

I'll go ahead and throw my support behind the EAA 10mm variants. I have the newer model Hunter as well as the standard. I'm admitedly a bit of a witness fan so my oppinion is a bit biased but I've put hundreds of rounds through the standard and a couple hundred through the Hunter and I love them both. I do have a problem with my hunter failing to feed the second-to-last round of the mag. I called EAA, they were friendly and offered to fix it if I sent it to them. I haven't yet though because I can't stand the idea of shipping one of my favorite guns and also because I have heard that the CS at EAA is so hit-or-miss. If it was a defensive gun I'd be more worried about getting it fixed, but it's really just a pretty toy.

The RIA 10mm is definitely on my list of future purchases as soon as I can save up some bucks. I can't wait to hear from those who have them.

Chamber thickness, or lack thereof, isn't where the problems come from. Nobody is blowing their chambers up. The brass fails long before the steel. Common problems running very hot rounds in a semi-auto include case failure, either from lack of case support or simply exceeding the strength of the brass around the case head, and then the mechanical effects of recoil on frame and/or slide (or their locking interface lugs or hood).

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This may be the case with 10mm I really don't know much about the round but I can say with 99% confidence that this does not apply to 9mm. as I've run well over a 100rd at 65k and a few over 70k psi testing the strength of a hi point. Now in a under supported barrel you might be able to blame the brass failing but it would be more of a design flaw. I might just keep pushing the psi to see where the brass fails as the gun is next to indestructible but if it blows I'm not worried, wouldn't be holding it of course.

And I wouldn't say no one is blowing there chambers up I've seen plenty of glock photos with split chambers.

Like to support the 10mm whenever I can. Great round.

My EDC:

S&W 610 all the way. Then you can shoot .40 S&W with NO barrel change!

I've got a G-20 for my house gun, equipped with an M6 laser/light on the rail. My hands are kinda small and holding it is like holding a brick. I hand load 180 grain Speer Gold Dots over a case full of Blue Dot powder. No bulge and plenty of zip.

My daughter is just getting into shooting. He looked at a number of pistols. The G 20 was easiest to operate in terms of racking the slide, and the trigger pull (though long) is the smoothest.

Had a Delta Elite, sold it. Biggest problem for a hand loader is chasing brass all over the yard after a range session.

redneck2 said:

I've got a G-20 for my house gun, equipped with an M6 laser/light on the rail. My hands are kinda small and holding it is like holding a brick. I hand load 180 grain Speer Gold Dots over a case full of Blue Dot powder. No bulge and plenty of zip.

My daughter is just getting into shooting. He looked at a number of pistols. The G 20 was easiest to operate in terms of racking the slide, and the trigger pull (though long) is the smoothest.

Had a Delta Elite, sold it. Biggest problem for a hand loader is chasing brass all over the yard after a range session.

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The G20 is wonderful gun. Matter of fact I'm picking up Gen 4 G20 today.

One of my inner gang in highschool lives in Montana these days and has bear sign on his property and neighbors loose stock. He is also a firearms professional.

He was always a 1911 fan big time. Liked big revolvers as well.

Today his daily working on the property gun is the Glock 20.

The only 10mm 1911 I really liked was the near mythical Springfield Omega. I only shot an example a few rounds but liked it. They were longslide, lengthened front to back gripped 1911-ish guns that came in a case with .38 Super and .45 auto barrels and springs as well as the 10mm.(they appealed to my inner lower case survivalist being) I did not like the smaller Delta Elite and the LER just did not do it for me.

I am a big anti plastic guy....but..... if I just had to have a 10mm semi auto that I might reasonably find I think it would be the Glock.

That S&W 610 revolver look intersting though.....

-kBob

The problem with 610 and steel 10mm S&W pistols is that they weigh as much empty as G20 with fully loaded 15 round magazine.