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10mm?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by Dryft, Feb 6, 2013.

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  1. Havok7416
    • Contributing Member

    Havok7416 Member

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    Some choose to see a problem, others may see reduced recoil in the high-end loads. When it comes to semi-auto 10mm guns the original S&Ws are still hard to beat IMO.
     
  2. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

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    That defeats the purpose of having a gun that takes ammo likely to still be on the shelves. Everybody shoots 40, which means none will be available.

    Dude, you need to take some time off from hunting to see a dermatologist and get that nasty skin condition cleared up!

    :D :neener::p
     
  3. Thompsoncustom

    Thompsoncustom Member

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    lol not around here .40 is the only thing left. No one here likes .40 i guess
     
  4. PabloJ

    PabloJ Member

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    It defies explanation but just like four years ago the .40S&W ammo is plentiful.

    Just about months ago I had choice of half dozen G24s at same table priced from $539 to $589. Did I get one? Noooo, I went for stupid five shot S&W 9mm revolver. I deserve to be kicked in the head by a donkey!:banghead:
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2013
  5. Torian

    Torian Member

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    I've been looking for a 10mm for CCW for awhile, and I recently picked up a new production 10mm EAA Witness Elite Match, and thought I'd throw in my two cents:

    Picked it up for a little under 600 from gunbroker, and it came with one K10 magazine. The newer models have the serial number in black - mine is a 75xxx series.

    I was torn between the Kimber Target and this gun, and ended up going with EAA because I wanted a double stack. I also wanted a 10mm that would devour full power loads like Underwood, and it doesn't disappoint. It weighs a little over 3 lbs loaded according to my scale, and has a great SA trigger.

    I did make two changes to the weapon before shooting it. I replaced the factory spring with a 20 pound wolf spring (spring felt like it was around 12-14 pounds), and dropped in a henning guide rod (the design, according to henning, put stress on the frame over time). My goal to was save the frame and my wrist from as much recoil as possible. The factory spring is WAY too light to shoot anything but FBI sissy loads.

    The new K10 magazines work well, and I just got an additional three sent to me from EAA (they are back in stock). They advertise them at 15 rounders, but only come with markings for 14 rounds, and I currently can fit 13 comfortably. Maybe they will loosen up over time.

    I really believe they ironed out the slide issues that plagued this weapon for the last few years. They had a bad batch of steel they used to make slides, and used crappy magazines that didn't work with their weapons. While their customer service still isn't the best, after shooting this 10mm for awhile with full power loads, I have some confidence that they are back to making a good auto, at least as far as the Elite Match is concerned.
     

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  6. Spike_akers

    Spike_akers Member

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    The kimber eclipse custom II is available in 10mm.. they have the internal extractor too. Only reason I plan on giving it a try. [​IMG]
     
  7. Backpacker33

    Backpacker33 Member

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    Colt Delta Elite vs Glock 10mm

    I feel the S&W is the best choice. However, they seem to have disappeared from the used market.
    I got to do a side-by-side comparison of the Glock and a Colt Delta Elite. Compared to the Colt, the Glock was difficult for me to shoot, I suppose due to its light weight. I also found the trigger hurt my finger, possibly due to the recoil.
    The Colt exhibited impressive accuracy.
     

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    Last edited: Feb 10, 2013
  8. Backpacker33

    Backpacker33 Member

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    Colt Delta Elite 10mm target

    Suits me. Shot off-hand.
     

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  9. Dryft

    Dryft Member

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    Well, gun shows occasionally treat me right!

    All this talk got me itching, but I thought there wouldn't be a chance of seeing one of these any time soon - guess I was wrong, huh? Rock Island Armory 10mm Tactical, and it is all that and a bag o' chips.

    Amazing fit and finish, solid as all get out, not even the slightest rattle. The front fiber optic is okay, we'll see how that looks outside, and the adjustable rear sight is beautiful. Trigger? Spectacular. Series 70. Well fit bobtail, and an ambi safety that locks in and out very well but will be replaced with a single side out of preference. It even has a magwell attached under the very nice grips!

    Immediate changes? None. I'm gonna shoot it. Not a fan of skeletonized triggers, but that's not a big deal for the time being. The ambi will go, and I'll probably put in an extended mag release. The two magazines do not have bumpers installed, and that will be rectified at some point as well.

    "Excited" is the word of the day folks.
     

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  10. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

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    Congratulations on your new Rock, looking forward to reading your range reports. I'm expecting to take delivery on a longslide tactical 1911 by summer time.

    Currently I have a G20 and G20 SF, both with aftermarket Lonewolf barrels, plus there's a 6" KKM barrel if I want to push WFNs. Pushing JHPs to full 10mm velocities can be a big mistake, especially if the primary purpose is personal defense at personal defense distances.

    Since the use of Underwood ammunition has been mentioned as a suggestion, I visited their website to learn more about their ammunition selection for the 10mm.
    I'm dismayed by their Gold Dot selection because the 155/165gr bullets are being pushed too fast than the bullets were designed for.

    http://www.underwoodammo.com/10mmauto165graingolddotjacketedhollowpointboxof50.aspx

    This what a 165gr Gold Dot's expansion should look like, 1.5 times the caliber with an advertised MV of 1150fps (#53970);

    40165GD5370cowbone008.jpg

    While this recovered GD was fired through a 40S&W carbine ~1500fps, three recovered 165gr Gold Dots shared the sheared off shape fired from a 1911/400 Corbon, <1400fps;


    40cal165GD1500fps016.gif

    The first customer review at the above Underwood link wrote highly about the wide expansion of a Gold Dot bullet, this 155gr GD (~1435fps) over expanded in a similar manner and is good for about 8" of soft tissue penetration;

    10mm155GD1420fps007.jpg

    By comparison, a 357mag, 158gr, traditional Winchester JHP lead exposed design at 1437fps expanded 1.45x caliber and is good for ~19.5" of soft tissue penetration;

    357mag158grWinJHP1437fps005.jpg

    What Underwood has failed to address for the consumer is that Speer engineers have designed their JHPs high velocity limit to 1300fps. Their advertised 155/1500fps and 165/1400fps Gold Dots far exceed their designed velocities, resulting in very diminished bullet performance. By contrast, the old school 357/158gr JHP was designed for magnum velocities some decades ago and still performs at magnum velocities today.

    Speer does make shallow cavity Gold Dots that perform at elevated velocities. By increasing/decreasing the surface area within the JHP's hollow cavity, engineers design the velocity window sweet spot for each JHP. Magnum and 357SIG Gold Dots have shallow cavities while slower velocity calibers have deeper (increased surface area) cavities.

    This is where Underwood has made another fundamental mistake in their product offerings, and this time it's with the 38 Super. Underwood loads the Super with 124gr Gold Dots, and XTPs, to 1350fps. Speer on the other hand uses the shallow cavity 125gr Gold Dot at 1335-1370fp for the 357SIG.

    Again we can see a dramatic difference when the wrong bullet is used at the wrong velocity design. Like the 155gr Gold Dot pictured above, this is what a 124gr Gold Dot looks when it's pushed to fast;


    124GD1268fps003.jpg

    For comparison, 38 Super/125gr Gold Dot @1436fps, ~15.6" soft tissue penetration;

    38Super125GD1436fps05321240grsrecovered006.jpg

    For me, the 10mm comes into its own as a trail or a hunting caliber. Reduce velocities when carrying JHPs, 180s perform very reliably in the mid 1200s giving good penetration and crush cavities. For busting up bones and very deep penetration it's hard to beat the heavy WFNs at whatever velocities one wants to push them. :)
     
  11. Xfire68

    Xfire68 Member

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    I was never a fan of Glock's but really wanted a 10mm. I just could not seem to save up the funds for a STI Perfect 10 so the G20 was it.

    Only have owned it a few months but, this Glock has made me a big big fan!

    IMG_4470_zps2a2bd210.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2013
  12. Torian

    Torian Member

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    Some good points were made about gold dot. Great bullet, but even bonded...doesn't seem to hold up as well at higher velocities. This is why my bullet of choice is the XTP for underwood loads. It's a tough bullet (non bonded) and gives good penetration characteristics as a hollow point.

    I still like the higher velocities of underwood loads. If I have to deal with some distance shooting, it's nice knowing there will still be plenty of energy around to hit the target. The bullet doesn't expand as nicely...it's a trade off.
     
  13. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    Hornady's manual says their 180 gr .40/10mm are good to 1450fps. Only 1300 for the 155 grains, through.
     
  14. Torian

    Torian Member

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    Yep, my carry load is the 180 grain at 1300 FPS for the 10mm.
     
  15. Xfire68

    Xfire68 Member

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    I have been loading up Nosler bullets in 135,180 and 200g. I have not tested them for expansion but, they are super accurate and a bargain for JHP's!

    I have a number of loading's with Power Pistol, Blue Dot, Unique and about to try some 800x. The 135g with a nice amount of Power Pistol lights up the range!:evil:
     
  16. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

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    I like the Nosler bullets, decent performance at an excellent price for JHPs that work.

    Power Pistol lights up the darkness, 1911 45 auto 230gr Golden Saber @975fps;

    45acp230grGoldenSaber74grPowerPisto.jpg

    Contrast that with a G20 IMR 800X, 175gr Silvertip @1400fps;

    10mm175grSilvertip10gr800X6.jpg

    The major reason I drop 180s to the mid 1200s from 1300fps is because of unreliable bullet performance at 1300fps. Going back over my notes from several years ago, a 180gr Gold Dot @1300fps impact velocity had a recovered core weight of 118.7grs, located fragments weighed 29.2grs and 32.1grs were not accounted for. A 180gr XTP at the same velocity was marginally better with a recovered weight of 144.7grs.

    A 155gr XTP @1570fps had a recovered weight of 117grs while a 175gr Silvertip @1300fps weighed 150.1grs and expanded to 0.726".

    By comparison, a 230gr Gold Dot in 45auto @984fps expanded to 0.735" and weighed 230.9grs. I did an 80 yard shot with the 1911 and had a recovered weight of 228.7grs.

    The reason I bring up the 45 auto, 230gr Gold Dot @984fps is because it outperforms a 10mm/180gr fragmented bullet. While many people will look at 10mm energy numbers and think 'more power' means better terminal performance, this is not true. The momentum of the 45/230/984fps is heads up with the 10/180/1300fps, when the 180s fragment they lose momentum and therefore lose penetration. Drop 180 velocity a little and the bullet will increase penetration.
     
  17. powder

    powder member

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    3rd gen Smiths. I have 2 of the 1076s and love the tanks. 9 + 1 single stack, get the palm swell grips if you have larger paws...
     
  18. foxs

    foxs Member

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    I am going after the Glock 29
     
  19. PabloJ

    PabloJ Member

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    Looked over used 1076 few weeks ago. The asking price was $599 but I could not justify >$400 for it. It has not been made in years and soon parts and magazines will be made of UNobtainium. Bought Gen 4 Glock 20 and am very satisfied with the purchase.
     
  20. Xfire68

    Xfire68 Member

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    2zulu1, what media are you using to test these bullets?
     
  21. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

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    Here's a link to bullet tests that push their design/construction limits a bit. :)

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7484901#post7484901

    Now that temps are warming up a bit, I should do more tests. I have a good inventory of 40 cal bullets to test in 10mm in all the popular weights; Sierra, Nosler, Remington, Winchester, Speer and Hornady. The goal will be to find each bullet's sweet spot fired from a 6" barrel. I'm expecting delivery of a custom 1911 long slide by summer and will be doing load development using a G20 with 6" KKM barrel.

    I also need to head out to the range and get more bones as my current supply is dwindling.
     
  22. Demitrios

    Demitrios Member

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    HarryGunner, that EDC you've got there is one sexy pistol. Where'd you get it?
     
  23. Xfire68

    Xfire68 Member

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    Dude you don't have to rub it in! LOL Spring is not kicking down the door around here yet!

    XTP's have always been a favorite of mine but, I have gotten attached to Nosler's lately do to cost alone. I have yet to test the expansion on these JHP's but, from what I have seen it's a solid choice if fps is not to high. From what you have posted in your tests it seems as tho most of these JHP's have a "Speed Limit".
     
  24. BrainOnSigs

    BrainOnSigs Member

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    A good friend and myself occasionally shoot various types of ammo in a manner that allows us to recover the bullets for examination. We have shot thru wood, glass, cardboard, water jugs, and water soaked products. This was our 2nd trip with 10mm included. We were firing into water soaked reams of copier paper that were held tightly together with duct tape. Two reams stood up back to back stopped all hollow point ammo in the 2nd ream, except the .45 ammo...it was recovered in the 1st ream. The reams are very hard on bullets and certainly not meant to be compared to tests using ballistic gel. Very un-scientific testing but enough info is gathered to form some educated conclusions....more importantly it is a lot of fun.

    The 9mm was shot thru a G19, the .40 thru a S&W M+P, the 10mm thru a G20SF, and the .45 ACP thru a Les Baer 1911.

    A note in regards to the 10mm ammo: all the bullets recovered exhibited failure/fragmentation.

    9mm 147 gr Federal LE Tactical HST: Recovered weight = 147 gr. Widest expansion point = 0.727" (This is an anomaly due to a single lead petal that stretch out in an irregular manner). (No fragmentation at all).

    9mm 147 gr Speer GD: Recovered weight = 147 gr. Widest expansion point = 0.584" (I believe this expansion to be more normal for a 0.355" bullet). (No fragmentation at all).

    .40 S&W 180 gr HST: Recovered weight = 173.9 gr. Widest expansion point = 0.759". (Minimal fragmentation with 6.1gr. not recovered).

    .45 ACP 230 gr HST: Recovered weight = 229.6gr. Widest expansion point = 0.837". Extremely minimal fragmentation with 0.4 gr not recovered. (This bullet's expansion was perfect, with beautifully formed petals).

    10mm 200 gr Hornady XTP (Underwood): Recovered weight = 178.2 gr. Widest expansion point = 0.665". (This is the only 10mm that was fired that didn't exhibit massive fragmentation/bullet failure).

    10mm 180 gr Hornady XTP (Underwood): Recovered weight = 160.0 gr. Widest expansion point = 0.658".

    10mm 180 gr Speer GD (Underwood): Recovered weight = 107.4 gr. Widest expansion point = 0.638". (Complete bullet failure).

    10mm 180 gr Montana Gold (Buffalo Bore): Recovered weight = 119.9 gr. Widest expansion = 0.561" (Complete bullet failure with 10 fragments founded, but note that this ammo penetrated the deepest of all 10mm ammo fired).

    10mm 165 gr Speer GD (Underwood): Recovered weight = 109.7 gr. Widest expansion = 0.619" (Complete bullet failure).

    Very casual conclusions:

    1) The HST bullet performs incredibly well at standard pressures and normal FPS ranges for all calibers shot. (I will be loading my G19 with some of my 147 gr HST ammo from now on).

    2) The 200 gr XTP in 10mm maybe the only bullet (from what we have tested) that is holding up to the "hot" 10mm loads. This is due to not only the excellent bullet construction but this load had the slowest FPS of any of the ammo we used (my guess).

    3) Current design .40 caliber bullets being pushed 200-300 fps faster for 10mm loads will cause some sort of bullet failure....in many cases extreme failure. Again...the paper reams are very, very hard on the bullets. (We considered bullet failure when the copper jacket separated from the lead portion of the bullet and caused major fragmentation).

    4) We chrono'd the Underwood stuff and it was very consistent plus an average of 50 fps faster than advertised. This usually isn't the case for other 10mm offerings.

    Questions:

    1) How would a .40 caliber HST bullet hold up in a "hot" 10mm load?

    2) Is bullet failure/fragmentation a bad thing if the penetration of the largest recovered piece is deep enough to incapacitate? (Example: The Buffalo Bore bullet left a track of sharp copper shards all the way from the 1st start of expansion all the way to the largest piece of recovered lead. This ammo fragmented the greatest out of what we have tested but penetrated the deepest. This would have been a very ugly wound in living tissue).

    A final side note: Underwood 10mm 180 gr FMJ zipped thru 4 reams of paper, 2 water-filled gallon jugs, and into 8" of wet sand. Nice to know if a G20 was a back up in large 4 legged critter country.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2013
  25. OilyPablo

    OilyPablo Member

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    As a 10mm fan with a G20 and a S&W 1006, I love 10mm threads. I am tired of downloaded commercial 10mm offerings, some are pretty weak - but these are just FMJ (FN) plinking ammo, so I do buy some of the hotter offerings by the smaller companies. So thanks for the info!

    Don't have much to add, but has anyone seen tests on Montana Gold 155 gr HP's? I'm sure these were made for .40S&W cartridges, but I got 1000 of them for a song early last year. A friend and I loaded 400 of them up about middle raneg per the book (and 1000 hot 180gr FMJ). Unfortunately I have not measured velocity, but they seem to have all the perceive recoil of Buffalo Bore and Underwood. I'm just wondering what they do at 1500-1600 FPS. :eek:
     
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