A Carbine. What Caliber?
- Thread starter Panzercat
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Sorry, B!ngo, it is neither a pistol or carbine but a sub-gun, completely different class of gun. To be a carbine it MUST have a barrel 16 inches or longer and a barrel band. And to qualify as a pistol it can not have a folding stock. (or any stock for that matter or a vertical grip)
Jim
OilyPablo
Member
I want a 10mm or .357Sig Carbine so bad I can taste it. I have all the others.
I saw a 10mm Oly upper at the fun show early last year - $~500 NIB IIRC. I should have bought it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Fun shooting? Hot .45ACP (P+) in my Camp Carbine is pretty great. Never hunted with it, but good accurate gun. Takes reliable 1911 mags.
I saw a 10mm Oly upper at the fun show early last year - $~500 NIB IIRC. I should have bought it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Fun shooting? Hot .45ACP (P+) in my Camp Carbine is pretty great. Never hunted with it, but good accurate gun. Takes reliable 1911 mags.
Whose definitions are these?
mljdeckard
Member
Not a pistol caliber at all.
If I am choosing a weapon that required two hands and has a stock, I'm not downgrading to a pistol cartridge.
If I am choosing a weapon that required two hands and has a stock, I'm not downgrading to a pistol cartridge.
Specifically I am most interested in the definition of "sub-gun"
Cosmoline
Member
It gets super confusing. The fact is most WWII era bolt action "rifles" were really CARBINES. Some were even called as much, like the K-98k or the K-31 Swiss. K being short for karabiner. Then there's the added confusion of the "short rifles" mixed into the batch. So you can have Mauser rifles, Mauser carbines and Mauser short rifles all of highly variable sizes.
For this thread I think the term would be "pistol caliber carbine." And in this case obviously a semiauto pistol caliber carbine.
For this thread I think the term would be "pistol caliber carbine." And in this case obviously a semiauto pistol caliber carbine.
OilyPablo
Member
There is no exact, precise definition of carbine.
OilyPablo
Member
It really depends what you are choosing it for.
Hmmm, 9mm by a super long margin and 10mm running second just because its so darn awesome. 45acp rounding out third to split the price/stopping power difference, I suspect. Wonder how much of 9mm was chosen just for economy sake in that regard.
DM~
Member
In a "pistol" cartridge, my carbine is a 44mag. and it's what i MUCH prefer. Second choise, would be a .357mag...
DM
DM
BCRider
Member
Well, for me guns are range toys. So I'd likely choose the 9mm to hold costs down.
If I were looking for a self/home defense sort of deal I'd likely go with .45ACP for close in heavy hitting power or perhaps 10mm if the gun would be used for reaching out to more like 100 yards on a consistent basis. Such as varminting on a ranch. But in that case I'd likey go with 124gn jacketed .357Mag from my Rossi lever gun and be even happier.
I've shot a variety of PCC's during my fairly brief shooting sport hobby. Some of them were so smooth and effective that they were actually boring. Others kicked and smoked and made me feel like I was really DOING something.
Of the more efficient guns the Beretta Storm and HK semi auto only civilian version guns were highly effective for putting rounds on target quickly and accurately. But for range giggles they were supremely boring after the first couple of magazines.
The Keltec S2000 and JR Carbine kicked and smoked and thumped like an old out of tune Ford Model T. But BECAUSE they do this they really make the smiles flow at the range. Shooting them becomes a really entertaining experience. Accuracy wise they are darn decent. But all that kicking, smoking and thumping around makes it a little slower to put rounds on target to the same level of accuracy as the Beretta and HK.
So there simply isn't any one "do it all" option. There's a bunch which fit a couple of needs really well while not doing so hot at other things.
Hey, minivans are OK for a wide variety of uses. But you don't enter the Indy 500 with one or show up at the Friday evening local drag races with one, or expect it to haul plywood and steel around without due consideration. And neither can you expect any one cartridge you asked about or the guns it fits to do it all either. You need to set some realistic parameters for cost and intended range of use. Only then can you or anyone else suggest what fits your needs.
If I were looking for a self/home defense sort of deal I'd likely go with .45ACP for close in heavy hitting power or perhaps 10mm if the gun would be used for reaching out to more like 100 yards on a consistent basis. Such as varminting on a ranch. But in that case I'd likey go with 124gn jacketed .357Mag from my Rossi lever gun and be even happier.
I've shot a variety of PCC's during my fairly brief shooting sport hobby. Some of them were so smooth and effective that they were actually boring. Others kicked and smoked and made me feel like I was really DOING something.
Of the more efficient guns the Beretta Storm and HK semi auto only civilian version guns were highly effective for putting rounds on target quickly and accurately. But for range giggles they were supremely boring after the first couple of magazines.
The Keltec S2000 and JR Carbine kicked and smoked and thumped like an old out of tune Ford Model T. But BECAUSE they do this they really make the smiles flow at the range. Shooting them becomes a really entertaining experience. Accuracy wise they are darn decent. But all that kicking, smoking and thumping around makes it a little slower to put rounds on target to the same level of accuracy as the Beretta and HK.
So there simply isn't any one "do it all" option. There's a bunch which fit a couple of needs really well while not doing so hot at other things.
Hey, minivans are OK for a wide variety of uses. But you don't enter the Indy 500 with one or show up at the Friday evening local drag races with one, or expect it to haul plywood and steel around without due consideration. And neither can you expect any one cartridge you asked about or the guns it fits to do it all either. You need to set some realistic parameters for cost and intended range of use. Only then can you or anyone else suggest what fits your needs.
Pistol caliber carbines no longer make any sense. The development of carbine length AR's has made them obsolete. They are soon destined to go the way of the dinousaur.
A 5.56 caliber AR carbine will be far less expensive as are the magazines. Any small difference in ammo costs between 5.56 and 9mm will easily be offset by less expensive guns and magazines.
The 5.56 round is far more effective, the guns are the same size,length, and weight. If you need a range toy to shoot cheap there are 22 caliber carbines for that role.
The magnum revolver rounds are the exception. From short barreled rifles and carbines they are a big step up in performance over the same rounds in handguns.
A 5.56 caliber AR carbine will be far less expensive as are the magazines. Any small difference in ammo costs between 5.56 and 9mm will easily be offset by less expensive guns and magazines.
The 5.56 round is far more effective, the guns are the same size,length, and weight. If you need a range toy to shoot cheap there are 22 caliber carbines for that role.
The magnum revolver rounds are the exception. From short barreled rifles and carbines they are a big step up in performance over the same rounds in handguns.
Tomcat47
Member
I chose .45 ACP, but I would equally build a 9mm.
My reasons would be to go with auto's I have and carry on a daily basis.
My reasons would be to go with auto's I have and carry on a daily basis.
mljdeckard
Member
I concur with jmr completely.
biohazurd
Member
I think .45 carbines are an absolute joy to shoot and i would love one in the future as an addition to my home defence "Collection". Dont own one yet but my 9mm AR is just begging me for a big brother! I also think the .357/.44 mag lever action and pistol combo would be great. Had an uncle who hunted with a .44 Mag rifle for deer and varmint. To much success.
I guess if i had to choose i would say .45 acp though. Cant elaborate anymore than i already have.
I guess if i had to choose i would say .45 acp though. Cant elaborate anymore than i already have.
MCgunner
Member
None of your choices. .357 magnum for versatillity (the sig will NEVER match the .357 magnum, especially in a rifle). If power is needed, .454 Casull in a Rossi 92.
To some people, in some situations, with some wants/needs, a pistol caliber carbine still makes sense.
Sure, they won't be extremely popular, and they won't be something that more enthusiasts have than no, but the ammunition IS less expensive, and if you shoot a lot that will save money overall. Some people will already have, say, 9mm, but not 5.56, and for the sake of ammunition compatibility and consolidation they may want to just stick to 9mm. Less recoil. Less muzzle blast/flash. These are some advantages. They fill a niche. They won't disappear. No different than the many other firearms and cartridges that simply fill a niche, and hang around, but never truly go mainstream.
BCRider
Member
Having heard how loud 5.56 AR's are in an indoor range even WITH the hearing protectors I can't imagine the shock to the hearing and likely some related sound induced temporary disorientation that would come from actually shooting an AR indoors in a small area without hearing protection. The only good thing is that both the attacker and defender would be equally affected in the event of a miss. Otherwise that first shot had better be a good one.
A PCC with the right rounds would still be noisy as blazes but not at all in the same league as the AR shooting a 5.56 round. So perhaps there is still a place for the PCC as a home defense firearm.
Then there's the range giggles aspect. For someone that already is commited to a given semi auto caliber and has a couple of handguns chambered in a given caliber having a PCC that accepts one of the handgun magazines makes for cheap fun at the range and extends the ease of supplying ammo to feed the beasts.
A PCC with the right rounds would still be noisy as blazes but not at all in the same league as the AR shooting a 5.56 round. So perhaps there is still a place for the PCC as a home defense firearm.
Then there's the range giggles aspect. For someone that already is commited to a given semi auto caliber and has a couple of handguns chambered in a given caliber having a PCC that accepts one of the handgun magazines makes for cheap fun at the range and extends the ease of supplying ammo to feed the beasts.
Agreed on all counts.
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