Remington R51

Billy Shears said:

Maybe, but I'm finding it really hard to believe the recoil was as punishing as he says it is.

The review comes across like Leghorn wanted to ding the gun. Whether this was because TTAG was honked off at not having been invited to shoot it originally, or because they think that picking a few guns to review negatively will get them a reputation for "telling it like it is" or something else I don't know. But I'll judge this thing for myself when it comes out.

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There you go....anyone's evaluation is just opinion until you shoot it yerself. I was simply saying that as far as the TTAG reviews I have read about guns I have actually shot and owned (a few of them actually) I agreed with them in principle. I do think the review sounds as if he is unfairly dinging the gun as well. But overall I don't think the TTAG reviews are usually completely off base, biased, and worthless. This could be the first one...

Then again I shot the Ruger LCP and found it extremely snappy. My Wife found it too snappy and several members of our support group found it unacceptable/unmanageable as well. They are a very popular and well made piece and have sold a lot of guns and been reviewed as being decent. I have drawn some pretty pointed and nasty criticism for stating my findings...controllability and all that as well as perceived recoil is a highly variable thing. This is why we need a lot of guns and new ideas to be continually developed and put to market.

One size does not and will not likely ever fit all.

VooDoo

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I missed it, Darn it !

Jim K said:

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What up, Jim K ?

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/02/foghorn/gun-review-remington-r51/
This review points out several potential problems especially with re-assembly. It is possible to assemble the gun so that it appears to be correctly assembled but will stop firing after an unknown amount of rounds, "watch the video.

I found this helpful:

http://www.guns.com/2014/02/13/shooting-field-stripping-remington-r51-video/

I'm interested in the design, mostly like the looks - except the muzzle is a bit chunky for my taste - and I'm fine with it being more of a compact than a sub-compact.

I will, however, probably wait a few months after it hits my LGS to let the dust settle.

I found this helpful:

http://www.guns.com/2014/02/13/shoot...ton-r51-video/

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Thanks for that link. It's interesting that he refers, in his video, to the truthaboutguns.com review that gym posted a link to in the post about yours, and which we have been discussing for the last several posts. I find it particularly interesting that he refers specifically to the TTAG reviewer's comment that he'd rather detail strip a 1911 than field strip this thing (that comment was made by Leghorn in his "ease of maintenance" category at the end, in which he gave the gun one star out of five). I thought Mr. Slowik's comment was very apt (especially after seeing him strip and reassemble the gun), that Leghorn "either did not have an owner's manual or was unable to read it, because it's actually a pretty simple process." He also seemed to indicate that Leghorn's assertion that you will not know if you reassembled the gun properly is false because the slide will lock back if you push the slide stop pin in so that the slide lock goes under the spring, and if you get the slide lock in above the spring, then the slide will lock to the rear with no magazine in the gun. Leghorn himself even admitted this was how the Remington reps discovered one of the guns had been reassembled incorrectly at the shot show booth, so I have to call BS on Leghorn's assertion that it's way too easy to assemble the gun incorrectly, and there's no way to tell that you did. It probably is easy enough to assemble it wrong -- if you don't read the instructions -- but it seems that despite Leghorn's assertion, there is a function check that will tell you whether or not you've done it correctly. It seems like Mr. Leghorn simply can't follow the instructions in the owner's manual.

As an interesting aside, owners of this pistol will have to be careful: it looks like it should be possible to give the frame of this gun exactly the same sort of idiot scratch you can put on a 1911.

Billy Shears said:

He also seemed to indicate that Leghorn's assertion that you will not know if you reassembled the gun properly is false because the slide will lock back if you push the slide stop pin in so that the slide lock goes under the spring, and if you get the slide lock in above the spring, then the slide will lock to the rear with no magazine in the gun. Leghorn himself even admitted this was how the Remington reps discovered one of the guns had been reassembled incorrectly at the shot show booth, so I have to call BS on Leghorn's assertion that it's way too easy to assemble the gun incorrectly, and there's no way to tell that you did.

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The R51 is certainly not the first pistol that can be improperly assembled with the lug on the slide release above the slide release return spring. However, we will have to see where the slide release return spring is located in the frame cutout for the slide release lever's lug to be able to tell how prone the R51's design might be to improper assembly.

Here is a discussion of the same type of problem involving a Sig SP2022 and a close-up photo of the SP2022's slide release return spring. Since the SP2022 was introduced in 2002 (and it predecessors the SP2009/SP2340 were introduced in 1998), there has been plenty of opportunity for owners -including a quarter of a million French police- to screw up the slide release reassembly. I don't remember any discussion of the SP2022's design being "fundamentally flawed" as a consequence. And Nick Leghorn must not have thought the design presented a problem because he did not mention it in TTAG's review of the SP2022.

"As an interesting aside, owners of this pistol will have to be careful: it looks like it should be possible to give the frame of this gun exactly the same sort of idiot scratch you can put on a 1911."

And honestly, I'd say everyone would agree that is a bit of a design flaw (ergonomically), though one we all choose to live with. Hopefully part isn't as sharp as a 1911s or Hi Power's

TCB

Here is a discussion of the same type of problem involving a Sig SP2022 and a close-up photo of the SP2022's slide release return spring. Since the SP2022 was introduced in 2002 (and it predecessors the SP2009/SP2340 were introduced in 1998), there has been plenty of opportunity for owners -including a quarter of a million French police- to screw up the slide release reassembly. I don't remember any discussion of the SP2022's design being "fundamentally flawed" as a consequence. And Nick Leghorn must not have thought the design presented a problem because he did not mention it in TTAG's review of the SP2022.

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Which, along with the rest of the excessively nitpicky complaints he makes about the R51, as well as the way he seems almost to downplay the gun's virtues (e.g. accuracy, reduced muzzle flip, reliability with all ammo) with extremely brief mentions -- almost as afterthoughts, it looks like -- leads me to believe he was simply not conducting a fair and unbiased review. It looks like he had his mind made up not to like the gun from the start.

And honestly, I'd say everyone would agree that is a bit of a design flaw (ergonomically), though one we all choose to live with. Hopefully part isn't as sharp as a 1911s or Hi Power's

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No, I can't say I would agree, never having put an idiot scratch on one of my 1911s or Hi Powers. It's really easy to avoid.

Billy Shears said:

... leads me to believe he was simply not conducting a fair and unbiased review.

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Whether a review is biased or not is fairly immaterial. Much more important are the nuggets of information a review may contain.

TTAG's review claims the R51 has a reassembly issue. With that starting clue, each of us will be able to perform our own review and determine whether or not the claimed issue poses a problem for us.

TTAG lost me when they talked about "street cred" in their housekeeping article.

I tried two out at the Harrisburg Sport show a week ago. Not having actually shot one, I can tell you both of them felt good in my hand but the trigger pull on both was hard ! The guy at the stand said they are set at 5lbs, but my Shield was much smoother , a totally different fell than on the R51 . Just my 2 cents , better to actually handle one before you buy one ..........

Can someone verify whether the trigger slides or pivots? That was an early question and I forget if it was resolved fo-realz. Nick's review doesn't mention this.

"TTAG lost me when they talked about "street cred" in their housekeeping article."
Me, too. Half the internet exploding because of a half-edited article is more in the realm of "cred" rather than ostensibly bogus "street cred." Requiring the boss to step in on behalf of one of his writers but stopping short of a retraction/rewrite to explain-away widespread legitimate criticism smacks more of defensiveness than accountability. It's pretty plain that many folks have it in for Remington for some perceived slight; probably some counter-culture instinct rooted in hipsterdom seeking to stick it to the Remington Man

Remington at least seems less poised to sell out the public for military contracts than some other brands out there. Though I do have an affinity to FNH products, myself, and can see why Nick favors them . I wouldn't know about H&K products.

TCB

It seems to me at this point that the trigger pivots, but who knows what is going on at Remington during the delayed introduction? BTW, I find it hard to credit an opinion that did not include shooting of this trigger when the factory prototypes were shot extensively by some pretty competent reviewers and the strong hints are for a long smooth pull and a very crisp break (intentionally long pull to fit to intended use and safety concerns).

I'm in, my order has been in for 2 weeks. Remington's success with the 1911 platform has far more weight to me than TTAG.

The trigger pivots. The takeup is long, two stage. It comes to a hard stop that breaks at maybe 5 lbs. The model I played with needed either a bit of wear, or a little smoothing, to make that break super crisp, but it wasn't bad.

Sam1911 said:

The trigger pivots.

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Could you shed any light on how or where the trigger pivots? In another thread, I had difficulty envisioning the trigger movement.

Nope, sorry. Have to wait until someone has one in-hand and can take it apart and give us some pics.

There is a diagram on the internet of the internals, you just have to dig a little for it. Just Google blow up of the r-51, I remember seeing it a while back.

I was pretty excited about this gun until I saw that it has one of the design flaws that some Kahrs also have, the exposed slide stop spring that will cause malfunctions if assembled improperly
That in itself makes the gun an absolute no go for me.

I was pretty excited about this gun until I saw that it has one of the design flaws that some Kahrs also have, the exposed slide stop spring that will cause malfunctions if assembled improperly
That in itself makes the gun an absolute no go for me.

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Why? Assemble it correctly, and perform a functions check to make sure you have, and you won't have any problem.

That's like saying I refuse to buy a car, because it needs scheduled maintenance, and if I don't keep it up, the car will break down somewhere and leave me stranded.

Hey, some folks know they can't trust themselves with mechanical things.


And some folks are the obsessive sort who MUST have their guns clean, so they won't go test fire a gun to make sure it's working after a cleaning but before they carry it.

That's why they made disposable cameras, you know? Not everyone trusts themselves to put the film in right.

Well, I don't think I'm particularly obsessive, and its not that I don't trust myself with mechanical things. I just don't like delicate mechanical things when there are other options. Imo more like saying I refuse to buy a car that has a failure prone transmission when I can buy any number of cars that get the same gas mileage and performance that don't.
Maybe I'm wrong and reports will prove that the critical, tiny little exposed spring right next to moving parts is no problem. In that case I might reconsider and my interest might perk up again. Until then, I'm not too keen on being an early adopter on this one.

The asserted problematic reassembly issue is a non-issue because it applies to many pistols that are accepted as being outstandingly good. I have personally, and seen other people, incorrectly reassembled a Glock because I did not pay attention to the slide release spring and a 1911 because I did not pay attention to putting the sear/disconnector group in correctly. Both of these situations were readily apparent when function checked. I am sure members on this forum could list of examples of pistols where this can happen. It is not as if the R51 design makes it easy to misassemble and not be readily apparent until shooting. It does not have any part similar to an M60 GPMG gas piston that can be inserted backwards and go undetected until firing.

Most of the negative review statements on the R51 impress me as trivial and expressions of self-importance.

Barrel Threads Near Muzzle of R51

Are the barrel threads for future suppressors ?

They aren't threads. Just parallel rings to give you something to grip while taking the gun apart.