Two pro-gun groups clash - who's right?

blarby · Jun 3, 2014

Ok, so now the dividing begins

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/nra-calls-open-carry-rallies-downright-weird-23968843

So, the NRA has spoken out against Open Carry Texas.

OCT is claiming they will speak out against the NRA.

So, the dividing begins.

I'm sure the Anti folks couldn't be happier, and it would seem we've done this to ourselves ?

Clearly illustrates what divisive behavior does to our cause, and how the actions of a few can have consequences for the many.

Two camps won't work. How do we come together on this?

Red Wind · Jun 3, 2014

It seems to be mainly a Texas push right now. Here in Florida, OC advocates have been trying to get it back since we lost it in 1987, over political manoeuvrings to get concealed carry passed. Janet Reno almost certainly was a factor.

But there is no push in the state to go hardcore, as has been happening in Texas. In fact, little of anything is happening at all OC wise, even with an overwhelming GOP Legislature and perhaps America's most pro gun Governor in the person of Rick Scott.

Why this almost total malaise, I cannot say. We almost got it in 2012 ,up to the very last session. If Scott loses in November, it won't happen for at least 4 more years.

Only a handful of OC less states left, and we along with South Carolina and Texas in the South, stand out.

usmarine0352_2005 · Jun 3, 2014

I've got to agree with the NRA on this one. Like the old adage goes, "Just because we can, doesn't mean we should."

Like the guy who scared the parents with his OC at a playground, and all of these OC folks who are getting guns booted from places like Chipotle, Jack in the Box, Sonic, and Chili's to name a few.

Sometimes what you are doing can be counter-productive and I've said it for awhile, all this is doing is swaying the court of public opinion against us.

http://news.yahoo.com/texas-gun-groups-clash-nra-armed-protests-public-203030317.html

.
Texas gun groups clash with NRA on armed protests in public spaces
By By Lisa Maria Garza11 hours ago

By Lisa Maria Garza

DALLAS (Reuters) - Texas gun rights groups that have toted rifles and shotguns in public in campaigns to show support for the open carrying of weapons blasted the NRA on Monday for calling those appeals "foolish" and "counterproductive."

"It is unfortunate that an organization that claims to be dedicated to the preservation of gun rights would attack another organization fighting so hard for those rights in Texas," the groups said in a statement.

The NRA statement comes as Sonic Drive-In and Chili's Grill & Bar issued statements last week asking that customers refrain from bringing firearms into their establishments, saying the weapons can create an uncomfortable atmosphere for other diners. A number from national eateries, including Chipotle Mexican Grill Inc, and Jack in the Box Inc, have also asked patrons to keep their firearms at home.
.

25cschaefer · Jun 3, 2014

Open carry in most of the western states is no big deal, while not as common as concealed, people don't look twice at a pistol on the hip or deer rifle on the back in small towns, except to admire.

Texas has a long history of oppressing rights, I'm sure black guys walking around in a white park took some getting used to for a while, but protest is a nessesary step to more freedom.

Scarring people is not the point of these protests, I think it is more about bringing attention to stupid laws. If open carry of handguns were allowed, these people would carry 1911s and revolvers, not ar15s and shotguns. The same thing happened in the civil rights movement with diners, 30 black men had to sit at the counter in order for them to start allowing any black people to eat there, after segregation ended-people of color did not swarm resturants and shut them down anymore. Many people were worried that black men would start taking over areas, raping and pillaging, it didn't happen. Letting people carry handguns openly with not make it the wild west with shoot outs at noon.

Many people are saying there are other ways to get the law overturned, but how are those other avenues going to get any attention? By being noticed, they are starting the conversation and debate. A discussion based in logic and reason is what is needed, that will never happen without catalyst.

On another note, these 'activists' need to make sure they are doing normal things, not lurking or being menacing. I have enjoyed the right to carry because it is legal in most sane states, I am not an activist and don't have to be, I do normal things with my pistol on my hip and hardly anyone notices. When they do notice as I'm swinging my kids, walking the dog, getting gas, they are usually curious. Most people ask if I'm a cop (this amused me greatly last summer when I had hair past my shoulders, wearing flip flops) I tell tham I am not and it creates an opportunity to educate people on their human rights. I have never had anyone run away screaming. Someone called the cops on me once and said I was 'brandishing,' the responding officer informed the lady, very stearnly, that changing a baby's diaper with a holstered pistol is not brandishing, or a crime, but filing a false report is.

Bexar · Jun 3, 2014

Chipolte had no choice but to prohibit the open carry of any type firearm on their premises by the general public. TABC (Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission) would have revoked their license and to get that license reinstated, if it's a mixed beverage license, could go over $20,000. Also the guys displaying the weapons in a licensed premises are real lucky they still have their guns and be ever to be able to ever own or even touch another firearm.

http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/home/press_releases/2013/20130906.asp

Ibid: Although an individual may have the legal authority to openly carry certain firearms in public, a business that is licensed to sell or serve alcoholic beverages is prohibited by state law from allowing rifles or shotguns in the building.

Specifically, Section 11.61(e) of the Alcoholic Beverage Code says that TABC shall, after the opportunity for a hearing, cancel a permit if the permittee knowingly allowed a person to possess a firearm in a building on the licensed premises. There are some exceptions included in this law, including licensed concealed handguns.

GoWolfpack · Jun 3, 2014

blarby said:
Clearly illustrates what divisive behavior does to our cause, and how the actions of a few can have consequences for the many.

Was the NRA not in control of their response to this? Did a member of Open Carry Texas physically force the NRA to issue this statement?

The reacting side created this divide. Each of us is responsible for his own actions. Each of us has control of how we react to the actions of others.

Tirod · Jun 3, 2014

OC Texas is making it a point to carry long rifles into public businesses and exploiting photos of them doing it.

The property owners are being forced to consider their liability costs, and voting for the insurance companies mandate to have an expressly written policy preventing carry on the property. Business as usual. They sold their Constitutional Rights, and their employees, too, for lower business costs. Profit counts more in America than your rights. Employees aren't allowed carry at all, in all 50 states, at any time on the clock. The company is now telling customers they can't. And the law is on their side.

OC Texas IS making a point, but saying that "The gun rights advocates are divided and the house will fall!" is far from a reality. Most 2A supporters don't make it a habit to openly carry rifles AT ALL, which is exactly why there hasn't be much seen of it anyway. It's something you do putting the guns in the car going to a range or out hunting. Not parading thru hardware stores making a political statement.

The NRA can not like it all they want, OC Texas can keep doing it until there's no place left to go, and we have to live with the results.

I fully expect that those who disagree with them locally will attempt illegal means to force them to change their behavior. It's not that the 2A supporters are being divided, it's that AMERICA can't discuss the situation with some give and take. Nobody respects common sense and the law, they only champion their own view, ill informed as it is.

Agsalaska · Jun 3, 2014

The NRA is right and its not even close.

The goal in Texas is not to carry an AR15 into a sonic which is legal. The goal is to be able to open carry a pistol which is illegal. These knuckleheads think that by walking into buildings with rifles will somehow help persuade the upcoming Texas Legislature to vote to allow them to carry pistols. These guys have absolutely no idea what they are doing. It is mind boggling to me how truly ignorant they are. I would not be surprised at all if some of them were actually being paid by Brady. The have no clue what it means to control a message and are guaranteeing I will never open carry a pistol in my home state.

22-rimfire · Jun 3, 2014

This is going to be an interesting topic with the NRA announcement. I support the NRA view on this issue. As mentioned above, it is semi-normal in hunting season to see people carrying rifles in Western States in particular. I have no problem with this; but I do take an issue with the Texas demonstations.

If the demonstrators chose to open carry handguns in public in Texas, they would be breaking the law. So they carry AR's that are legal or currently legal to bring publicity to their cause.

Years ago, when Martin Luther King was leading demonstrations about civil rights, history has purported that he did not support the violence that occurred. But that did not stop the people intent on making the cause look bad. I know I believed that the violence and property damage associated with these demonstrations were wrong and it totally tiltled my view of the demonstrations at the time. Eventually the "cause" won, but there were scars that still exist today.

barnbwt · Jun 3, 2014

I'm sure the Anti folks couldn't be happier, and it would seem we've done this to ourselves ?

Clearly illustrates what divisive behavior does to our cause, and how the actions of a few can have consequences for the many.

Texas is too big a prize for the anti's to lose to something as bright and flashy as open carry. Their donors would bury them for this. I am positive they are sowing the seeds of dischord right now, even here (not by carrying guns in Chipotle, but by arguing OCT should be disowned and such claptrap). They see that it divides/confuses us, so they will continue pressing the issue while proposing policies to split our ranks. I'll bet a good portion of folks here would vote today for a law specifically banning OC behavior like the Chipotle Twins', with no regard for the RKBA or unintended repercussions.

Do both sides even argue that OC should be permitted (let alone should be socially acceptable)? I don't get that feeling. This is more like the early Fudd days, when sportsmen actually wanted black guns banned for the same reasons as anti's; not later on when they wanted to do so in a misguided attempt to protect their non-assault-weapons from more laws.

We have to convince everyone here that we all want the same end result before we can reunite; at that point, it's just a matter of agreeing on tactics (i.e. that holster carry is probably preferable to Chipotle grandstanding). But, we all have to accept that if we agree on OC as the end result, there will occasionally be those who will take us up on it if it becomes the law of the land. If we are amenable to that fact, we can move forward. If not, we will lose a chunk of our cohesive edge as the OC proponents drive forward toward a 2nd Amendment freer of infringements.

TCB

BSA1 · Jun 3, 2014

Alas the NRA has stepped right in the middle of a perfect trap and the Anti's should be overjoyed.

By not only publicly disagreeing with the Texas Open Carry folks they are also creating seeds of disbelief of their support for Open Carry in all other states. The last thing the NRA needs is to divide gun owners in this critically important election year.

benEzra · Jun 3, 2014

the OC proponents drive forward toward a 2nd Amendment freer of infringements.

The over-the-top grandstanders are not "driving forward toward fewer infringements". Their ill-considered buffoonery is leading to *more* infringements by private property owners, and simultaneously derailing efforts to make Texas OC law less infringing. The people carring rifles at the ready into national-chain franchises are the most effective foot soldiers Bloomberg and Brady have. Less than half a dozen guys managed to do something that Bloomberg and all his Wall Street dollars could not previously do, and that was convince multiple businesses that previously wanted to remain neutral on the gun issue to turn anti. *That* is the legacy of these guys. Apparently they are trying to get as many national chains as they can to ban all carry---open or concealed, long gun or handgun, licensed or not, nationwide.

Even Open Carry Texas condemned this sort of thing:

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE – Come and Take It Texas, Texas Carry, Gun Rights Across America and Open Carry Texas Joint Statement on OC of Long Arms – May 21, 2014

Over the past year, our members have done what no other organization has been able to do – put open carry at the forefront of the fight to restore gun rights for all Texans. As we have grown, we have had to adjust our efforts based on lessons learned through hundreds of open carry events, big and small.

Looking back, it has become clear that there is one area in which we have gotten the most resistance and suffered the largest setbacks: open carry of long arms into private businesses. This is not a new phenomenon. Early on, because of our efforts, the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission (TABC) sent a message to all TABC licensees warning them about allowing our members to open carry into their businesses. This resulted in places like Smashburger asking us to leave our guns at home. Since then, Starbucks, Wendy’s, Jack In The Box, Applebees and most recently, Chipotle have come out asking we not carry our firearms into their establishments.
Whereas, our mission is to get open carry of handguns passed in Texas, we must once again adjust in a way that shines a positive light on our efforts, our members, and our respective organizations. We are humbly and emphatically imploring our members to cease taking long arms into corporate businesses unless invited. Black Powder revolvers have proven to be very effective and align with our goal of legalizing open carry with a handgun. We do understand that not everyone will be able to afford one, but if you can, we are requesting you do so. Almost every leader has gone to Black powder for a reason. It works.

For all further open carry walks with long guns, we are adopting the following unified protocol and general policy to best ensure meeting our respective legislative mission to legalize open carry:

1) Always notify local law enforcement prior to the walk, especially the day of.
2) Carry Flags and signs during your walk to increase awareness.
3) Carry the long gun on a sling, not held.
4) Do not go into corporate businesses without prior permission, preferably not at all.
5) If asked to leave, do so quietly and do not make it a problem.
6) Do not post pics publicly if you do get permission and are able to OC in a cooperate business.
7) Do not go into businesses with TABC signs posted with a long gun (Ever).
8) If at all possible, keep to local small businesses that are 2A friendly.

We ask that members take a step back and make an objective assessment of what we are trying to accomplish and help us to get open carry passed for everyone. We must be willing and able to recognize what works and what doesn’t, but we need your help to make these efforts a success. It will be very difficult to spin holstered, black powder revolvers into a negative story. This is the goal we are currently striving for, open carry of handguns. We know everyone is working hard for this cause. It is simply time to focus on what has been proven to work. The conversation has shifted from open carry of handguns to rifles in businesses, negating our efforts and distracting us from our mission.
We are winning. Because we are winning, we have come under increased scrutiny by media and politicians. Let’s use that spotlight and make the most positive impact we can!
Carry on!

CJ Grisham, Terry Holcomb, Sr, Murdoch Pizgotti, Eric Reed
Open Carry Texas, Texas Carry, CATI-TX, GRAA

If Texans want open carry like Arizona, they need to emulate the tactics that lead to Arizona's current law, not the tactics that led to California's Mulford Act and its most recent OC ban.

You do not "normalize open carry" by doing something that is so far out of the mainstream that it would make people nervous in a gun shop. I dare say that walking into an urban eatery in 1793 with a rifle at low ready would have made people very nervous also (and I am pretty sure it would have gotten guns pointed at you in my family's rural general store back in the 1920s/1930s if you had walked in carrying a rifle at low ready or port arms).

Activism needs to be smart. This "activism"---assuming it isn't a false-flag op by the gun control lobby---isn't smart.

AlexanderA · Jun 3, 2014

This open carrying (to make a political point) is creating a backlash against guns in general, that (in my opinion) is greater than the backlash caused by mass shooting incidents. After all, mass shooting incidents are very rare and atypical. If open carrying of guns into public, urban venues becomes a phenomenon, we'll see a hue and cry against guns that really will tip the balance against us. This is definitely a step backwards. The NRA knows what it is doing in this case.

Here in northern Virginia (home to the NRA national headquarters, btw), open carrying is legal. But it rarely happens, and up to now it has not been an issue. But a few activists have been openly carrying into Starbucks and other places, to supposedly "desensitize the public," and it has had the opposite effect. The public (meaning the soccer moms, the yuppies, and other groups that are prominent around here) have become hyper-sensitized, and they don't like it. This is a tactic that is boomeranging on us. The people that are doing this are politically tone-deaf.

ohbythebay · Jun 3, 2014

I'm with Ben and the NRA

Over the top behavior does not help our cause. You want to open carry with a 1911 on the hip, great, should be no different than having a tool on your belt. But prancing around home depot and other places with an AR-15 ? What the point ? Scare people ? How does Joe customer distinguish between an open carry person doing that and a nut job killing everyone in the store? Wait for the sound of gunfire?

The NRA is simply trying to reign in some of the "fringe" elements. it is those pictures of the "yeehaa" OC fringe that the anti-'s just love because it makes gun owners look like rednecks*.

*Note - No rednecks were harmed in the making of this post...

Mainsail · Jun 3, 2014

I think we're giving them too much credit. I don't believe they're activists trying to get handgun open carry. So far all I've seen are some immature young adults who have found a loophole in the Texas law as an opportunity to get a 'selfie' for their facebook page.

Young adults engaging in what at the time seemed to be shocking behavior isn't new. 50 years ago a man with long hair would cause the moms to drag their kids to the other side of the street. 20 years ago wearing jeans to work was alarming to some.

The more attention you give them the happier they are.

EDIT to add: Yikes, just after I posted this a guy in the car in front of me on the ferry got out of his car- dude has stripes tattooed on his face- across his ears around to his nose, and another down his forehead to his nose.

taliv · Jun 3, 2014

just my opinion, but 'buffoonery' is about as perfect description of OCTX as I could muster.

if they had any intelligence, they would have stuck to OC handguns, and then worked with legislators to just include rifles in the bills.

DrBozack · Jun 3, 2014

The NRA is correct to criticize OCT.

You won't win the gun-rights war by being right. You'll win by swaying public opinion about guns and gun owners.

OCT is to the gun movement what Fred Phelps was to Christianity.

The_Armed_Therapist · Jun 3, 2014

Multiple camps on this topic is nothing new. I believe multiple camps is necessary. The NRA has a strong statist streak that does not resonate with many gun owners. For the same reason a centralized federal government is undesirable and unresponsive, a centralized gun rights group would be undesirable and unresponsive. Unity is highly overrated.

ATLDave · Jun 3, 2014

This isn't hard. Is the technique in question working? Do you like the results? If no, then it doesn't matter what the intention was or whether it's "right" in some philosophical sense.

I mean, if you adopt some shooting technique because, in your mind, it logically seems to offer advantages, but your shooting in fact gets much worse, do you stick with the new technique? No, you don't. You figure out what works.

Same thing regarding activism. Figure out what works. Shock-based activism generally doesn't. Quit it.

morcey2 · Jun 3, 2014

taliv said:
if they had any intelligence, they would have stuck to OC handguns, and then worked with legislators to just include rifles in the bills.

Correct me if I'm wrong or I'm misinterpreting what you said, but OC of handguns is fully illegal in TX which is why they OC long guns in protest. (It's early and my brain isn't all the way in gear so I may be misunderstanding what you posted.) I'm not defending what these guys did in Chipotle because, from the pictures I've seen, they blew right past OC all the way into brandishing/threatening.

Matt

The_Armed_Therapist · Jun 3, 2014

And I don't believe "gun rights" is a "war." However, if it were something like unto it, then it is being framed inaccurately. Open carry is a natural right. Concealed carry is a natural right. Self-defense is a natural right. Nobody needs to "sway public opinion" to "fight" for these things. Those against natural rights are the ones that need to sway public opinion to fight against them. Acts of aggression by anti-gun factions (laws restricting these rights) should be met with aggression and/or steadfastness rather than being sucked into the anti-gun's terms--swaying public opinion.

JRH6856 · Jun 3, 2014

My confidence level that OC would pass the next session of the Texas Legislature and be signed into law was about 95%. Then OCT started their walks. Then the copycat groups started invading restaurants.

My confidence level is down to 80% and falling fast and an attempt to ban all OC would not surprise me. I don't think there will be such a ban passed in the next session, but it may get introduced. If the Dems work it right, this single issue could have a big effect on the election. Texas politics is strange. Just when you think voters are certain to vote one way, is when they are likely to surprise you and go the other way.

DrBozack · Jun 3, 2014

And I don't believe "gun rights" is a "war." However, if it were something like unto it, then it is being framed inaccurately. Open carry is a natural right. Concealed carry is a natural right. Self-defense is a natural right. Nobody needs to "sway public opinion" to "fight" for these things. Those against natural rights are the ones that need to sway public opinion to fight against them. Acts of aggression by anti-gun factions (laws restricting these rights) should be met with aggression and/or steadfastness rather than being sucked into the anti-gun's terms--swaying public opinion.

Correct. "War" was a lazy analogy.

However, the point remains. There is a political struggle pitting anti-gun activists against pro-gun advocates. In the middle is a vast swath of America with far less strident opinions. These are the people who will likely decide the outcome through the voting booth. You're not interesting in persuading Americans to support gun rights? Ok.

Tirod · Jun 3, 2014

OCT is to the gun movement what Fred Phelps was to Christianity.

We may not like when and where the message is delivered, but the message is, none the less, important. HOW the message is delivered doesn't need to be the focus, tho, and it's naive to think that it doesn't make any difference, or that "it's lawful and I'm right" is a defense.

Very much the same expressing alternate lifestyles - the previous Gay Parades in various forms of dress or undress and exchanging personal displays of affection were mostly damaging to the cause. The mainstream would not accept it - even the media hid the video. It was blatant "in your face" exhibitionism. Once the media managers began controlling things, it became a "unconstitutional " assault on the right of nicely portrayed couples who just wanted to enjoy the legal rights of marriage. It may still have been unwanted news, but the public wasn't offended and just got out of the way.

Despite however legal it is for OCT to do whatever they like, they aren't doing it in a way that furthers our rights in a positive manner. If the Phelps supporters had kept their dissent against alternative lifestyles directed when it was the most publicly acceptable, they wouldn't have alienated many of the people who actually agreed with them.

That is what is happening now - we agree we should be able to carry a rifle into a business and not get overreaction. Sling it upside down across your back and don't start posing with your finger on the trigger, people won't be nervous. You just stopped in to get a bite to eat while out deer hunting. Parading thru Lowe's Depot in the middle of suburbia, tho, ain't that place.

If anything, they are helping us to understand why it doesn't work and how we should be handling things. Being sacrificial scapegoats is their choice, same as the Phelps supporters, and we should actually celebrate they can exercise their Rights in that manner. Wouldn't happen in a lot of other places, they would have been jailed months ago.

This is America, we CAN agree to disagree. But, being disagreeable is the worst way to sell your viewpoint. Somebody will finally get that across to them and they will go to ground.

Bartholomew Roberts · Jun 3, 2014

Well so far, Open Carry Texas and Open Carry Tarrant have been told their demonstrations are more harmful than helpful by

1. An NRA Board of Director
2. The Texas State Rifle Assn lobbyist
3. The Texas House Representative who sponsored the Open Carry bill in 2011 and 2013
4. The former State Senator who got the state's concealed handgun law passed in 1993 and who just this October organized an open carry protest at the Alamo

What is it going to take for these guys to listen to the decades of experience telling them their tactics aren't working?

Two pro-gun groups clash - who's right?

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