s&w m&p hate

If the rule is 10 pound minimum, there's no sense in going beyond that.

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No, there's plenty of sense in going beyond that. It's called a safety margin or a margin of error. There's no harm in going 20% over, but if you're .00001% under you're in legal trouble. It's just like all the shotgun manufacturers making 18.5" bbls instead of 18" bbls. Who says the state's weights and measures are calibrated the same as S&W's? Or the same as these guys posting on the web?

My Walther PPS, which was distributed by S&W, had a trigger well over 12 pounds. They, too, are well-known for absurdly heavy triggers in Massachusetts.

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Would you prefer they didn't make a MA compliant model? Or do you like having the option to buy the pistol in MA?

ugaarguy said:

No, there's plenty of sense in going beyond that. It's called a safety margin or a margin of error. There's no harm in going 20% over, but if you're .00001% under you're in legal trouble. It's just like all the shotgun manufacturers making 18.5" bbls instead of 18" bbls. Who says the state's weights and measures are calibrated the same as S&W's? Or

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the same as these guys posting on the web?


Would you prefer they didn't make a MA compliant model? Or do you like having the option to buy the pistol in MA?

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Good point... Seems like many gun owners go on forums and YouTube to bash a gun or gun maker without knowing all the facts or what they're talking about.

Me, I like American made Rugers and S&W. For budget guns, I like Kel Tec and Taurus. Sigs are well made beautiful guns too.

The first gun I ever shot was a Glock and from then on, I just did not get the hype. The only thing I like about them is that different models of the same caliber can share mags, and they have a lot of aftermarket junk to add to the gun... Other than that, I just don't get the petal stool that they're placed on at all. Another thing that turned me off from them is the pompous attitudes that some Glock owners fanboys have. I don't think that most Glock owners hate on S&W specifically, I think SOME hate on any gun that is not 100% just like Glock. That's just my opinion and personal observation of SOME Glock owners on the web (yahoo answers, YouTube, other forums)

Sam1911 said:

And I have personal experience with what seems to be an endemic reliability problem with some models, especially the Pro.

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I thought reliability issues were ironed out except for any new models.

The only guns I've truly "hated" were ones that didn't work.
Had an M&P45c that I never clicked with even though it always worked flawlessly. Course that's not saying much as there have been a great number of guns I didn't click with...

Sam1911 encapsulated how most owners of other pistols react to the M&P.

Most of them have something between grudging respect, equitable affection, or even wistful admiration (only tempered by distrust) of the M&P. Almost all will admit it is a great-shooting gun.

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However, there are a tiny number of gun owners who seem to feel threatened that other models of guns may be as good as -or better than- their favorite guns and they react to their fear with anger. It is certainly not unheard of for those few to having biting things to say about other guns.

jamal28 said:

Why is there so much hate towards the m & p from others gun owners including those that own glocks.

... refering to the hate it gets from the owners of glocks and sig.

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I am a fan of Glocks/Sigs and do not hate M&P.

I have shot G17/G19/G26/G21/G30 and currently shoot G22/G23/G27 and M&P40/45.

For me, everything that I dislike about the Glock such as bulky grip, grip angle, mag/slide release and other ergonomics, they are fixed on the M&P. With the small grip insert, even my wife with her smaller hands can easily reach all the controls and readily reach the mag release on M&P40/45 but she must shift her grip on the Glocks to release the magazine.

Perhaps M&P having fixed all the issues are agitating the Glock owners everytime they shoot their Glocks?

Now, if S&W could finally do something about the M&P trigger ... thankfully it is easy to do a trigger job on them with a diamond file from Harbor Freight - http://www.burwellguns.com/M&Ptriggerjob1.htm

My goal is to own one of them all, that way any opinions on a specific gun aren't because I only shoot brand XYZ. Seems the people that knock it either had issues or are out to justify to themselves that they made the right choice. I shoot my M&P as well or better than nearly any other gun I own. Don't know why, but I'm not mad it shoots well for me. I haven't had any issues that I can remember, be it the guns fault, mags fault or of my own causing. Even the cheapo pro-mags have run perfectly.

They aren't perfect but in the sub $600 range I can't think of a pistol I wouldn't expect to spend either time/effort or money on to get the most out of it. Glock sites are referred to as dovetail protectors. The XD trigger could use work. They all are a budget driven mass produced gun. It isn't going to be perfect but it will be pretty serviceable.

This thread reminds of the video by Jerry Miculek, where he has a trigger scale and weighs the trigger pulls of a few popular polymer handguns (a Glock, an XD, of course an M&P, and IIRC one other, but I don't remember what it was). He "surprisingly" finds that the M&P has the lightest trigger. As I watched that video, and as I read this thread, an incident comes to memory...

I have a family member who works for a state law enforcement agency (not Massachusetts). After he graduated from his academy in early 2013, we went and stayed at his house for a short time. While there, I asked if I could check out his duty gun, which he unloaded and handed to me. I verified empty, racked the slide, did the obligatory aim at a spot on the wall, and began the trigger press. Then I pressed. And pressed. And wondered, oh sh--, did I break thi-

*Click*

"Whaaaaaaaat? What's with this trigger, bro?" *Re-rack, re-squeeze* "Man that's heavy."

Then I pull out my stock gen3 G19, unload and verify safe, and dry fire it. I know Glock advertises a 5.5 lb trigger. If that's true, my brother's M&P has to be at least a good 8 or 9 lbs; certainly heavier than any Glock or XD trigger I've ever handled (and I've owned both).

So IDK what Jerry Miculek was testing. I mean, the guy works for Smith. I knew going in that he wasn't going to find Springfield's product to have the best trigger, if you catch my drift.

I don't hate the M&P line. I think it's aesthetically gorgeous. I think the grip is phenomenally comfortable. I love the grip texturing and the grooves on the rear of the slide. I hate the hinge in the trigger. And the only M&P I ever dry fired had a ridiculously heavy trigger. I don't hate the gun, not by a long shot. But if all M&P triggers are like that, I don't want anything to do with the product line.

Have you shot the gun? I hear "I hate the hinge" yet I can't feel it when actually shooting live fire. It's also a $40 part to make the trigger outshine both the XD and Glock. Its amazing a line of guns can be dismissed based on two dry fires of an officers duty gun.

But if all M&P triggers are like that,

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They're not.

Anywhoo, not to jump on the bandwagon, but I've not seen much hate on the M&P. Thread a while back when one agency got upset because their trainees couldn't figure out how to properly seat the magazines and the mags were dropping out while on the firing line ... agency subsequently went back (temporarily) to their previous issue pistol ...

My department uses M&Ps. I hated them at first (being an iconoclast who muchly prefers a hammer-fired pistol), however, my opinion has evolved some -- I now have a lot of respect for the M&Ps as the pistol has demonstrated really good reliability, acceptable accuracy and been pretty good for beginners to learn.

Now, ah, the trigger ... yes, it can be improved greatly with the Apex mods. My issue has always been the slight mushiness on many specimens and a somewhat indistinct reset after the pistol has been shot a while. All things considered though, the superior ergonomics of the M&Ps, combined with the reliability and the decent accuracy, render it a pretty good service pistol. For sure, production M&Ps have way better sights than stock Glocks ...

"Smith & Wesson, being based in Massachusetts, has let politicians guide their manufacturing and design. For example, they put 12-16 pound triggers on their M&P pistols.

This kind of engineering was prompted by politicians, not gun designers. This breaks a fundamental rule of gun safety which says never to point a gun at anything unless you intend to shoot it because a 12 pound trigger, even even the most expert hands, will cause the muzzle to move off target when firing.

This "safety" feature actually makes the gun more dangerous and requires the owner to get a trigger job done on it. "


This is absolute bunk! If a 12 pound trigger causes you to move the muzzle in a manner that takes it off the target then you need to work on your trigger control. Oh, and please inform the DA revolver owners they have "more dangerous" weapons...wait, they might like that!

The M&Ps have not been dissed in any concerted way as far as I know. I don't own one but have shot them and they seem like well made reliable pistols as far as I can discern.

benzy2 said:

Have you shot the gun? I hear "I hate the hinge" yet I can't feel it when actually shooting live fire. It's also a $40 part to make the trigger outshine both the XD and Glock. Its amazing a line of guns can be dismissed based on two dry fires of an officers duty gun.

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I could have dry fired it 10, 20, or 50 times, and it would have felt progressively heavier, not better. If a $40 part makes such a world of difference, one should quickly ask why Smith didn't do it that way to begin with.

I prefer to buy products I like right off the shelf, rather than buy things and have to invest more to bring it up to standard. Even if the monetary cost of the upgrade is marginal, it's the principle of the thing. So, in the event that I can't find a perfect pistol, it becomes a matter of weighing the pros and cons of each.

At the time I bought my Glock, it came out on top of the others, for me. So far, I've not come up with sufficient reason to pursue a replacement; the M&P's sexy slide serrations and comfortable grip notwithstanding. I shoot the G19 really well, it carries very well for me, I'm pleased with it's capacity, and I love everything about it's trigger. The M&P might be better in many ways, I readily concede; but it can't be enough of an improvement (based on how I feel about the G19) to justify the expense of the change.

Carry & duty pistols....

I've owned & toted a few semi auto pistols(M9, 96D, PX4 C/constant action, M&P, Glock gen 04). In short, for duty or serious defense use, you need to replace the sights on nearly any semi auto pistol you carry.
I like Trijicon 3 dot night sights. The steel design is robust & can hold up well. Wayne Novak's style lends itself to CCW/plainclothes carry. He understands the need for pistol sights that don't snag or are sharp. Smith & Wesson has used Novak styles since the 1980s with great results.
As for triggers. I shot about 240 rounds of .45acp in my Glock 21. The police trade in trigger was decent & I wouldn't feel the need to convert it to NY-01.
My M&P .45acp Compact shot fine too. I wouldn't feel unsafe with it on duty or as a CCed pistol. Could custom action work or Apex Tactical parts help? Sure, but on those M&Ps it's not critical.

FWIW, I've heard a few PPQ shooters & gun press writers like Massad Ayoob rave about the trigger pull on the pistols. I'd buy a long-slide PPQ .40 if I could.

I like my m&p9 and would probably love it once finally get an apex trigger kit installed. People will always find something to complain about, it's in our nature.

CJ said:

Ummm...Massachusetts (as people mention here). 940 CMR 16.00 which make it a "deceptive practice" if certain features aren't included:

"...such mechanisms shall include, but are not limited to: raising trigger resistance to at least a ten pound pull, altering the firing mechanism so that an average five year old child's hands are too small to operate the handgun, or requiring a series of multiple motions in order to fire the handgun."

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such mechanisms shall include, but are not limited to:

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That 10 lb trigger was an option given, not a requirement.

I thought reliability issues were ironed out except for any new models.

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I really don't know how to say for sure. The last one I saw choke and "DNF" a match was a week and a half ago at my monthly club match.

Why is there so much hate towards the m & p from others gun owners including those that own glocks

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What hate? Where have you seen this?

Also some companies pay people to go on websites and ask questions like this one. It quickly gets a rumor going on "social media" that people "hate on" M&Ps. But I've seen no particular hate.

Well, OK maybe from fellas like Fire In Cairo who are new to firearms and believe all they read on the internet without trying to verify it. Nope not all M&Ps have 12 pound triggers. If you have one that does you can fix that.

Folks sometimes spread rumors with the intent of drawing traffic to their websites. "Mo hits, mo money!"

Some folk don't care for the M&P but it rarely rises to the level of hate. Really who cares if it does.

tipoc

Not seen the Hate - shot a couple (actually a bunch) of M&P pistols last Summer. Didn't buy one but I think they are excellent guns. Not for me but they seem to be pretty popular in this neck of the woods.

VooDoo

I guess we havent decided if there's actually any hate or not but it sounds like they need to put them out with better triggers. Maybe that's where the hate comes from? That right after you buy a new gun, you have to buy a new trigger group also?

Sam1911 said:

I really don't know how to say for sure. The last one I saw choke and "DNF" a match was a week and a half ago at my monthly club match.

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Just out of curiosity - what type of malfunction are you seeing there? I've heard of some issues with the extractor and 9mm, but that doesn't seem like the type of thing that would take a pistol of a match for the rest of the day.

FWIW, mine has been mostly pretty good. Most of my issues were self caused, and break down to:

1. I went to a lower power recoil spring (13 lbs) that it discovered didn't have the power to always overcome the striker spring and close the action, resulting in "no bang" when the trigger was pulled occasionally. Going back to the stock spring completely fixed that issue, so I can't fault the gun.

2. I've had extraction issues only if I go for a good while (750 rounds or so if shooting lead - about twice that if shooting jacketed) without at least taking a pick to the extractor and scrapping out the crud.

3. Only within the last month or two I've had a few times where empty brass stuck in the chamber and wouldn't come out without using a squib rod to bang it out. I was using bulk used brass though and after I started to case gauge I've found several instances of 9mm Luger cases in that batch that someone cut down to 9mm Makarov length. I've got a hunch that these were causing problems as when I case gauged the lot and removed those all the issues went away.

Certainly no worse than any other pistol I own - issues caused by lack of cleaning, tinkering, and bad reloads, which will stop anything. I keep a round count of what I put through the gun and I just passed 10k rounds this month.

Granted, as I mentioned earlier I think highly of a lot of other guns too. I've owned or shot most of the "major" duty sized pistols on the market right now and the only one that I just don't really like is the Beretta 92, and even that one isn't terrible. As long as you stay away from the absolute cheap junk guns (Lorcin, Jennings, etc) they all pretty much work fine.

M&P triggers aren't any worse than Glock or xD triggers, on the whole, but they can all be made a whole lot better with premium aftermarket parts. Many shooters consider that to be part of the purchase cost, like a holster and 5-10 mags, mag pouches, fiber optic front sight, etc.

That really shouldn't scare off a potential buyer, as striker-fired polymer frame pistols are fundamentally equivalent in that aspect.

The ongoing problems with extraction (sometimes even with aftermarket extractors) and occasional light-strike issues are more of a concern as there exist a noteworthy number of the guns that neither the factory nor the well-known M&P gun plumbers can seem to get running reliably in the long term.

One of my best pals owned and dumped FIVE of them after multiple trips back to the factory for problems that came right back. Wouldn't even sell me one to tinker with.
I've personally, in the flesh, seen four or five folks suffer that problem and ruin a match when their M&P turned into a manually-operated repeater in the middle of a stage, just in the last four years or so (including my club president just this month). If you can't get the gun to RUN, what the trigger feels like is totally irrelevant.

Just out of curiosity - what type of malfunction are you seeing there? I've heard of some issues with the extractor and 9mm, but that doesn't seem like the type of thing that would take a pistol of a match for the rest of the day.

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Failure to extract is the most common problem. And yes, it sure does take a pistol right out of the match. If you end up "TRB-ing" multiple times in every string, you might as well pack it in and go home. ONE botched stage can take you out of the running. A whole match worth isn't worth the waste of ammo...

Another problem has been with recurring, intermittent light strikes, which polishing the striker and replacing springs sometimes fixes. Not that that's much consolation when you're doing malfunction drills in the middle of a big match you spent hundreds of dollars to attend.

M&P triggers aren't any worse than Glock or xD triggers, on the whole, but they can all be made a whole lot better with premium aftermarket parts. Many shooters consider that to be part of the purchase cost, like a holster and 5-10 mags, mag pouches, fiber optic front sight, etc.

That really shouldn't scare off a potential buyer, as striker-fired polymer frame pistols are fundamentally equivalent in that aspect.

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makes sense.

I like my M&P9c just fine. Had some problems with it at first with light primer strikes but subsequently traced it to my reloads. The primers I was using were old and had been in my basement for some years (thought they were newer).

Anyway, I like the gun very much and would recommend it highly. It is my main summer carry gun. I've no problem with the stock trigger.

I have a rather limited sample of (2). Both have been trouble free.

One of the two was a Mass compliant model. I have a preference for the magazine disconnect feature which others do not have. The trigger press was corrected with a Apex Duty/Carry kit. With the difference the Apex Duty/Carry kit made I had the kit installed on my other MP. On both pistols the OEM sights were changed out to 10-8 sights with a front night sight and plain rear sight.

With either one I've experienced no extraction/ejection or insufficient strike discharge problems. But like I said previously I have a limited sample of two.

Either way both are tools. If the tool is problematic simply quit using it and find another tool that works.