tell me about the 25 auto cartridge?

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Guess I didn't say it clearly. I was speaking of other folks liking to tell You that they think you payed too much.

Sorry if I mis-read your post. It's easy to do on a board I guess. Some people love a conflict no matter what it's about too. When someone questions whether I paid too much for a cheap pistol 40 years ago I wonder what they really want if you get my drift. I didn't want an argument about the relative value of .25's. The Raven isn't exactly a high quality firearm but it's the caliber that matters IMO. The .25 caliber cartridges were just never very powerful. My Raven actually was very accurate for a while. But it never fed reliably. It was a total piece of junk when I bought it and still is IMO. I haven't sold it because I wouldn't take advantage of someone like that. :) But again it was very accurate for several years. It even function halfway reliable until it got too dirty and figuring out how to break it down to clean it was a mystery that was hard to solve. I have no doubt that there are better made .25's out there but I shot some that were supposed to be a lot better. They functioned better but the accuracy was never there. My SNS Raven was the most accurate .25 I ever shot. My mother actually bought one but it was a Phoenix Arms model and they were even worse than the Raven Arms models. I think my brother still has that one not that he would ever admit it. :)
 
kaBob... I wonder if she was feeling the same thing I was feeling as the attacker(s) departed, (too many emotions to describe)?!!

I'm off to church in an hour. I'd love to have my S&W .44 Magnum 329 PD on me, (for it's reliability, lightness & stopping power), but, I will be kneeling at the alter for communion this morning in a shirt, tie & slacks. I think there's a chance folks may notice 'the print' of the .44 on me, so... I'm opting for the Bauer in my pants pocket as I can't hide a sharp stick either. Because a gun on me.... any gun.... will be better than none. If something bad does happen... I'm just going to have to deal with it using what I have.
 
Seems to me the bottom line is:

The 25acp fires a dense projectile at sufficient velocity to mess up vital innards. It's sufficient, but barely, if shot placement is on target.

There are much better alternatives, but the little 25 certainly isn't a toy.
 
About Any Handgun...

I have shot paper, bricks, boards, cans, jugs, telephone books, birds, small game, and a primitive ballistic pendulum. I have never shot gelatin.

I have read about defensive and hunting cartridges since some time in the 1950s, but for decades my understanding was just a tad off. I thought largely in terms of "energy dump" or "energy transfer"--surely a .41 Magnum would be a lot more effective than an old black powder .38-40 from a Colt Model P--or so I thought.

Not only that, but I had never considered anything about what kind of hit might effect a physiological stop and would would likely not. A big magnum that wreaks havoc when shot into a water jug would certainly stop a "bad guy", wouldn't it? Well, not unless it hits something vital. Massad Ayoob recommenders that everyone get a copy of Gray's Anatomy.

Then there is the important distinction between lethality and defensive effectiveness.

The man that an officer shot six times with my .32 Long Regulation Police died, but he was not effectively stopped--at all. I was not impressed by the effects of that gun on boards. A gunsmith said to always fire all six shots, fast--unlike screen fiction.

Some years ago I came across the FBI study on wounding effectiveness. It told me a lot. There are minima; too much power is no better than enough; and what you hit, and from what angle, is critical. Some good training also taught me the importance of being able to hit several times rapidly.

During one of these discussions a few years ago, one of our members explained that the way a handgun bullet works has nothing to do with "energy transfer", and that it is much more analogous to sticking a pointed, small diameter poker into an attacker with enough force to penetrate adequately, and to break bones if necessary. I works like a "sharp stick", if you will.

That clear explanation was an eye opener, and it really stuck with me.

Someone has tested throwing an empty Baby Browning at something and measuring the kinetic energy. He found the energy of the thrown pistol to average several times the 65 foot pound muzzle energy of the bullet.

That may be interesting, but it only illustrative. The thrown pistol won't hurt much unless it hits an eye. It does not penetrate the target.

But a bullet will, depending on outer garments, and so might a sharp stick. The questions is, how much, and where. It may suffice, and it may not.

A .32 ACP hitting the same person in the same place should do better than a .25; a .380, better yet; and sometimes, one would wish for a 9MM Parabellum.

How about a .357 SIG? Several law enforcement agencies use them. But consider this: they may need to shoot through plate glass, or maybe an automobile. For most self defense usage, that extra penetration is likely wasted.

A .44 Magnum? Even more waste, and virtually impossible to effect rapid multiple hits to increase the likelihood of damaging something critical.

At some point some years ago, I finally realized that my long-held beliefs about the legendary superiority of my .45ACP were just that--legend.
 
When someone questions whether I paid too much for a cheap pistol 40 years ago I wonder what they really want if you get my drift.

I can only assume from your statement "I hope you don't think I read all that stuff" that what you do read but find disagreeable is never given enough attention to pick up on nuance. So I'll repeat my comment with a more blunt explanation. "Often taking notice of the incredibility of a trivial comment stimulates people to :scrutiny: the credibility of major comments" means when people smell BS like "The retail price went down between 1975 and 1980" (you referring to the Raven) they tend to start looking around to avoid stepping in more BS, or in other words if you make a statement that is not credible it makes people question the credibility of your other comments. Do you get my drift?

Some people love a conflict no matter what it's about too.

Look in the mirror.
 
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At some point some years ago, I finally realized that my long-held beliefs about the legendary superiority of my .45ACP were just that--legend.

Me too. It was quite an epiphany, much like realizing that the Sun does not revolve around the Earth. It also made me very disgusted with the false prophets that misled us with nonsensical formulas about "relative stopping power" and the superiority of the .45ACP.
 
(you referring to the Raven) they tend to start looking around to avoid stepping in more BS, or in other words if you make a statement that is not credible it makes people question the credibility of your other comments. Do you get my drift?

Why do you insist on beating this to death is what I want to know? If you don't know that guns go down in price after their first years on the market I can point you to the very LCP I've mentioned here. It was selling for over $400 for about 2 years. Now it sells for about $300. The Raven did go down in price despite your faulty BS detector. But I don't think you give a whit about any of this. You just want something to argue about. BTW I wasn't talking about ignoring your post. I was talking about not reading that long and boring post from 45 auto about the relative price of beans in China err.. handguns over a 40 year period. It doesn't change the premise that a .25 is not equal to a .380 in power and even though a person can indeed use a gun with too much power they can certainly use one with too little power as well and that's the .25 caliber no matter what the brand of gun. How that got off on the relative price of guns is irrelevant. The whole topic irrelevant and what's more I just don't give a rat's rear. I've explained this before but you seem intent on doing nothing but calling my post BS. There's no point to that. My point about choosing between guns that are the same size essentially the caliber matters a whole lot. The .25 is famously underpowered. That's just a fact. The gun I used as an example to show the relative size doesn't change that. Even the slightly smaller .25's mentioned by 45 auto are still underpowered and they are not that much smaller.

I suppose we are talking about the difference between a mouse gun and a pocket pistol here. The mouse gun may be slightly smaller but you give up a whole lot of power. Choosing that gun to save size is not a good idea. It isn't a good idea at all. And all this stuff about the relative price of guns from 40 years ago is bogus. I only proved that the Raven was essentially priced at the same level as the current LCP. BTW the 1975 issue Raven I bought, even if it was bought at $50, would still be in about the same price range as the modern LCP. Since you're so interested in that argument check the inflation calculator to see what $50 in 1975 would be worth today. It would be worth $213.61. I've seen LCP's for $262 with free shipping.

To review. The Raven did go down in price no matter what you think just like the LCP is dropping in price. BTW the price is still dropping. From what I hear the dealer price for an LCP is $220 so we can expect to see the pistols get close to that price at some point as dealers try to dump overstocked inventory. And the Raven was not so much cheaper than the LCP. That's not BS as you rudely suggested. It's a fact. It's a boring fact but it's a fact.

UPDATE:

Just to prove that I did not "overpay" for my Raven I offer this statement from someone who sold the Raven back in the 1970's.

"This was THE budget tacti-cool gun of the 1970's. We sold them by the gross in the 1970's and 1980's (I think we started at $79.95 retail..."

The price actually went UP for that retailer after their original $80 price. It was likely when the fire burned the factory down that the price went up. At any rate you can find this quote on this web page. Again I have my receipt showing exactly what I paid for mine. Why you think you know more about their original price is beyond me. Yes the price went down eventually. For one thing the original company making them went out of business when their factory burned down. Phoenix Arms sold them cheaper. I know that happened but that was after the fire.

This web page says the original price was between $60 and $100. $60 in 1972 would be equivalent to $329.66 today. That's considerably more than the price of an LCP.

There is ample evidence that the going rate for those pistols in the 70's was in the same price range as many pocket pistols of today. Call that BS if you like. I have evidence. That's not BS.
 
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Raven Lube

Sorry if I mis-read your post. It's easy to do on a board I guess. Some people love a conflict no matter what it's about too. When someone questions whether I paid too much for a cheap pistol 40 years ago I wonder what they really want if you get my drift. I didn't want an argument about the relative value of .25's. The Raven isn't exactly a high quality firearm but it's the caliber that matters IMO. The .25 caliber cartridges were just never very powerful. My Raven actually was very accurate for a while. But it never fed reliably. It was a total piece of junk when I bought it and still is IMO. I haven't sold it because I wouldn't take advantage of someone like that. :) But again it was very accurate for several years. It even function halfway reliable until it got too dirty and figuring out how to break it down to clean it was a mystery that was hard to solve. I have no doubt that there are better made .25's out there but I shot some that were supposed to be a lot better. They functioned better but the accuracy was never there. My SNS Raven was the most accurate .25 I ever shot. My mother actually bought one but it was a Phoenix Arms model and they were even worse than the Raven Arms models. I think my brother still has that one not that he would ever admit it. :)

Since you don't want to take the trouble of breaking down the Raven to clean it, you might just try to lightly spray/soak (not drown) it with WD-40, from every angle you can. I don't know if the slide can be cocked back in the open position, or not. At any rate, a "helper" could hold it open for you if necessary, but spray the inner action parts well. Work the action back and forth often.

Be sure you and others helping you are wearing protective stretch gloves, since petroleum products can enter the skin with ill effects. Also, ventilation and a protective mask will aid in prevention of breathing dangerous fumes.

If you want to do a really good lube job, put the oil soaked gun in an old
"T" shirt or zipper plastic bag (freezer bag) for a couple or more days. Shift the gun around, in different positions often, to let the oil drain to every part. Of course, drain and wipe dry as you see fit.

If all else fails, take it to a competent honest gunsmith, but get an estimate first.

I hope you are not offended by these suggestions, and I may have been overly zealous, but I just wanted to think out each step, as I might do it.

On a personal note, about 2 years ago, I bought a "fixer upper" special deal. Five old revolvers, one that would shoot now, with the others "needing some work". Sure enough, one worked, and after oiling another one, as noted above, the 2nd worked well, SA and DA. It is still undetermined as to the fate of the other three. I believe I got a good deal.

Please let us know about your Raven's ultimate destiny.:)
 
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Since you don't want to take the trouble of breaking down the Raven to clean it, you might just try to lightly spray/soak (not drown) it with WD-40, from every angle you can

I actually cleaned it the last time I had it out to shoot it. Once I did finally get it apart it completely lost it's ability to shoot accurately. Go figure. To be honest I don't have a lot of use for that pistol. It never fed well and now it isn't accurate either. I only used it a very few times when I was going places I didn't feel safe without a gun. It was illegal to carry concealed in those days so it wasn't something I liked to do. Now I have several pistols that are far better than it is including the LCP pocket pistol. I never felt like I could count on that Raven firing more than once. I might rack the slide a time or two and get another round fired but I didn't count on it. It just wasn't a good choice for SD. Like others have said it was better than a sharp stick but it was far inferior to other pistols including the ones mentioned here. And even when it did work it was still shooting .25 caliber cartridges which just aren't that effective.

I could get it apart again and clean it up real well and maybe it would get back to being as reliable as it was at first. But it never was that great on reliability. And it got worse pretty quickly. I wish I could get it back to shooting accurate like it did though. That would be worth it just to see the look on people's faces when they saw how accurate it could be. I still remember my dad's jaw hanging down about 2 inches when he saw me sink a leaf at 60 yards with it. I was surprised at that shot too but it would consistently shoot 12" groups at about that distance which is amazing for a pistol of that type (and that includes the other .25's of that era - I never shot another one that was accurate at all).

But when I think about what I eventually replaced that pistol with it almost makes me laugh at the difference. I had another pistol between the two but eventually my carry gun went from a Raven P-25 to a Sig P220. There's more than a little difference between the two. :)
 
DISASSEMBLY

The pistol must be in unloaded, uncocked condition before take down can be performed. To remove the slide, use a blunt object (such as a lead pencil eraser) to push the Retainer, located in the back end of the Slide, forward until it stops (about 1/4"). While holding the Retainer depressed, gently lift the rearward portion of the Slide away from the Frame until it stops. Release the Retainer gently as it is spring loaded. Hold the rearward portion of the Slide up and push the Slide forward, off of the end of the gun. This procedure removes the entire Slide Assembly and is sufficient for normal cleaning and oiling. Clean the Barrel within a reasonable period of time after shooting. After the powder residue has been removed, give the Barrel bore a protective coat of oil.
ASSEMBLY
Make sure the Recoil Spring is in the Frame. Place the Slide Assembly over the Barrel and pull rearward until it can be dropped down onto the Frame. Depress the Retainer into the Slide far enough to allow it to drop into its slot. Release the Retainer after Slide is pushed down onto the Frame. You should not be able to lift the rear of the Slide away from the Frame if properly assembled. After the Assembly is completed, but before loading, manually operate the pistol to see that everything functions properly.


(THE FOLLOWING IS NOT FROM THE MANUAL)

EASIER DISASSEMBLY
Presuming your right handed, hold the pistol in your right hand. Grab the Slide with your left hand. Put your pointer finger on the Retainer and push it in. Keeping your finger on the Retainer lift the Slide up and pull it off the front. You won't lose the Retainer and Firing Pin Spring this way. You can literally field strip the Raven pistol in two seconds.

http://jtjersey.com/Raven/raven.htm

Its really not that hard.
 
Why do you insist on beating this to death is what I want to know? If you don't know that guns go down in price after their first years on the market I can point you to the very LCP I've mentioned here. It was selling for over $400 for about 2 years. Now it sells for about $300. The Raven did go down in price despite your faulty BS detector. But I don't think you give a whit about any of this. You just want something to argue about. BTW I wasn't talking about ignoring your post. I was talking about not reading that long and boring post from 45 auto about the relative price of beans in China err.. handguns over a 40 year period. It doesn't change the premise that a .25 is not equal to a .380 in power and even though a person can indeed use a gun with too much power they can certainly use one with too little power as well and that's the .25 caliber no matter what the brand of gun. How that got off on the relative price of guns is irrelevant. The whole topic irrelevant and what's more I just don't give a rat's rear. I've explained this before but you seem intent on doing nothing but calling my post BS. There's no point to that. My point about choosing between guns that are the same size essentially the caliber matters a whole lot. The .25 is famously underpowered. That's just a fact. The gun I used as an example to show the relative size doesn't change that. Even the slightly smaller .25's mentioned by 45 auto are still underpowered and they are not that much smaller.

I suppose we are talking about the difference between a mouse gun and a pocket pistol here. The mouse gun may be slightly smaller but you give up a whole lot of power. Choosing that gun to save size is not a good idea. It isn't a good idea at all. And all this stuff about the relative price of guns from 40 years ago is bogus. I only proved that the Raven was essentially priced at the same level as the current LCP. BTW the 1975 issue Raven I bought, even if it was bought at $50, would still be in about the same price range as the modern LCP. Since you're so interested in that argument check the inflation calculator to see what $50 in 1975 would be worth today. It would be worth $213.61. I've seen LCP's for $262 with free shipping.

To review. The Raven did go down in price no matter what you think just like the LCP is dropping in price. BTW the price is still dropping. From what I hear the dealer price for an LCP is $220 so we can expect to see the pistols get close to that price at some point as dealers try to dump overstocked inventory. And the Raven was not so much cheaper than the LCP. That's not BS as you rudely suggested. It's a fact. It's a boring fact but it's a fact.

UPDATE:

Just to prove that I did not "overpay" for my Raven I offer this statement from someone who sold the Raven back in the 1970's.

"This was THE budget tacti-cool gun of the 1970's. We sold them by the gross in the 1970's and 1980's (I think we started at $79.95 retail..."

The price actually went UP for that retailer after their original $80 price. It was likely when the fire burned the factory down that the price went up. At any rate you can find this quote on this web page. Again I have my receipt showing exactly what I paid for mine. Why you think you know more about their original price is beyond me. Yes the price went down eventually. For one thing the original company making them went out of business when their factory burned down. Phoenix Arms sold them cheaper. I know that happened but that was after the fire.

This web page says the original price was between $60 and $100. $60 in 1972 would be equivalent to $329.66 today. That's considerably more than the price of an LCP.

There is ample evidence that the going rate for those pistols in the 70's was in the same price range as many pocket pistols of today. Call that BS if you like. I have evidence. That's not BS.


CeeZee your posts are beginning to remind me of the Player Queen in Hamlet who doth protest too much. Aside from the sources you site not being from sources printed at the time (1970s -80s) such as what 45_auto and I have sited, this dubious trivial claim about Raven prices is similar to your previous thread about the .45ACP Browning HP that was BS and recent use of an inaccurate movie plot about an ex-convict being the designer of the M1 Carbine that was BS to support your opinions in another thread about guns in the U.K. and Australia. All of which are why I posted earlier "Often taking notice of the incredibility of a trivial comment stimulates people to :scrutiny: the credibility of major comments means when people smell BS like "The retail price went down between 1975 and 1980" (you referring to the Raven) they tend to start looking around to avoid stepping in more BS, or in other words if you make a statement that is not credible it makes people question the credibility of your other comments”. CeeZee I am sure you are right about many things but when you post things like above you damage the credibility of all your statements. In other words, one awshucks erases ninety-nine attaboys. I am done pointing this out to you because if you don’t get it by now you never will and I am not going to waste more space in this thread on your folly.
 
I am done pointing this out to you

First constructive thing I've heard you say. If this means you will stop misquoting me, dragging threads off topic and generally being an irritation to me I'm all for it. You don't see me talking about how you misuse the term "cognitive dissonance" which you certainly did. There was no evidence of any psychological conflict in the person you said exhibited that condition. And without that conflict there is no cognitive dissonance. Get a dictionary if you don't believe me. I am married to an award winning psychologist so trust me when I say I know your use is wrong. It came off as psychobabble but I didn't bother pointing that out until now of course. I just want to show you that it's easy to nitpick what people say but it's not very constructive. Actually being done with this thread hijacking stuff would be constructive but apparently once again you are following me around and criticizing my every word in every thread where you think I might have made a smidgen of an error. The sad part is your criticisms are not only wrong but they contribute nothing to the discussions here. I'll believe you are actually "done" with this stuff when I see it. I won't even go into... well think about who I'm married to. You quote The Bard so you'll know what it means if I ask you if you wash your hands a lot. Are they clean after you wash them?
 
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Wow. With the exception of a handful of real life experiences like ApacheCoTodd's and a small handful of others this thread is a serious waste of bandwidth.

Especially all the chest beating and "I'm right and you're wrong" posts. Isn't this the High Road? I guess being civil isn't the same as being smart or even staying somewhat close to on topic.

Apache,

I found your post most interesting. A fascinating report of real world use of the 25. Unusual, but real! :) I can see how the round could work well.

While most gun enthusiasts and all keyboard commandoes dislike the 25 there have been a huge pile of them sold to and used by just ordinary people. I guess they don't know they'd be better off with a sharp stick! What a statement that is.


Cat
 
A Question Someone Could Answer Objectively...

Catshooter said, "I guess they don't know they'd be better off with a sharp stick! What a statement that is."

The statement one usually hears is that a .25 automatic is better than a sharp stick. On this and on two other recent threads, however, it has been opined by a couple of us that a frying pan or a walking cane might well be preferable for use in defending against a close ambush than one of the anemic rounds such as the .25 ACP or the antiquated .32 S&W. In my case, one big reason is that the cane is already in hand; it need not be drawn, and there is no safety to disengage.

We know that bullets wound in the same way that a stabbing instrument wounds--they penetrate and injure vital parts of the body. At most handgun power levels, energy is just a means to penetration; there is no "stopping power" or "energy dump".

So, the question is, which is better, a "sharp stick", or a bullet from a small handgun cartridge?

That could be determined.

First, let's not think about sharpening a twig from a dead branch, or using a sharpened piece of northern cedar or balsam poplar, even though such a stick could maim or even kill. Start with the kind of thing you would use to poke the fire or roast a piece of meat. Use a piece of metal about a quarter of an inch in diameter, and rather sharp on the end, with an ogive that causes some damage in terms of wound channel.

Thrust it into some ballistic gelatin, as hard as you can. Repeat several times, and measure the penetration.

Will you do better than with your Baby Browning?

I don't know, but until I've seen it I wouldn't bet a nickel against a fit person with the "stick" and on the gun.

The fact that a little pistol is a gun and is dangerous and can seriously injure or kill does not make it powerful. On the other hand, even a beginning martial arts student can strike with several times the energy of a .25 ACP. Concentrate that power, and you'll have something.

Someone really ought to try this. It could prove very informative.

Now, that does not mean that if one has been forced into a car and the kidnapper has missed that little concealed .25, that the gun would not prove mighty handy.
 
First constructive thing I've heard you say. If this means you will stop misquoting me, dragging threads off topic and generally being an irritation to me I'm all for it. You don't see me talking about how you misuse the term "cognitive dissonance" which you certainly did. There was no evidence of any psychological conflict in the person you said exhibited that condition. And without that conflict there is no cognitive dissonance. Get a dictionary if you don't believe me. I am married to an award winning psychologist so trust me when I say I know your use is wrong. It came off as psychobabble but I didn't bother pointing that out until now of course. I just want to show you that it's easy to nitpick what people say but it's not very constructive. Actually being done with this thread hijacking stuff would be constructive but apparently once again you are following me around and criticizing my every word in every thread where you think I might have made a smidgen of an error. The sad part is your criticisms are not only wrong but they contribute nothing to the discussions here. I'll believe you are actually "done" with this stuff when I see it. I won't even go into... well think about who I'm married to. You quote The Bard so you'll know what it means if I ask you if you wash your hands a lot. Are they clean after you wash them?
For anyone looking for accurate historical firearms history from Mr. CeeZee, caveat emptor as he is doing the equivalent of peddling cubic zirconia a.k.a. CeeZee, as diamonds. Mr. CeeZee you often claim to be a paid historian. How can you not get the simplest of factual details right on this forum? Don’t flatter yourself by letting your ego run wild thinking I am following you on this forum. I follow the forum to which you just happen to be posting misleading and erroneous information.
 
yes guys I am looking to learn something about the 25 auto so please lets don't fight here! thanks for your understanding! now what I want to know is what is the smallest 25 auto pistol made?? thanks!
 
I know somebody will come along with something I've never heard of, but AFAIK the Baby Browning is the smallest .25 -- definitely smaller than a Beretta Jetfire. I have both, and I'm sure of it.

You can get a new production Baby replica from PSA. That's what mine is.

http://www.precisionsmallarms.com/
 
Family resemblances...

A couple of .25s with respective comps in the full size - back up perspective.
 

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thanks toivo that's a nice pistol :D I wondered if there was a smaller one made? :what: :) nice pics there apachecotodd, I like the little black one with the exposed hammer!! :)
 
yes guys I am looking to learn something about the 25 auto so please lets don't fight here! thanks for your understanding! now what I want to know is what is the smallest 25 auto pistol made?? thanks!

To the best of my knowledge the smallest semiautomatic pistol to fire the .25acp is the Browning. It is not however the smallest pistol that fires the .25acp cartridge. A quick google can confirm this. I will check my books for you to see if I can find a smaller .25acp semiautomatic pistol. BTW the .25acp can also be used in a revolver.

Edit: Here is an old thread about an obscure and unusual revolver design.
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-482854.html
You can google Decker Revolver for pictures and find a description on patent drawing in The Complete Illustrated Encyclopedia of the World's Firearms by Ian V. Hogg
 
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Didn't Walther make one called the model 11? Boy this is really digging into the past but it seems I recall they did and it is indeed a bit smaller than the Baby Browning. I'm not sure though.


Cat
 
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