tell me about the 25 auto cartridge?

[DT Guy]

Years ago, as an LEO, I carried a little DAO Intratec .25 inside my vest, under the elastic straps. Since our uniform shirts zipped up under a row of faux buttons, access was tricky, but possible.

The gun was no marvel of engineering, but worked; I always thought of it as a 'Nose Gun', as an old-timer had put it-"Shove it up their nose and keep pulling the trigger."

I would be interested in seeing if a modern, perhaps polymer, .25 could be made proportionally smaller than the current micro-pistol .380's of today; of course, if they could, I'd likely need my bi-focals to find it, much less shoot it.

Larry

 

[45_auto]

Maybe you could drew it surreptitiously under some circumstances, and maybe you could keep it concealed, but that would tie up your hand.

I believe that there is some old saying about birds and bushes and hands that could be relevant to this situation.

 

[45_auto]

I think the reason people think the .25 is outdated is that there are guns that are the same size as the .25 autos from way back that are much more powerful.

What "more powerful guns" are you aware of that are smaller than the Colt, Browning, or Bauer .25's from way back? Only one I'm aware of that was even close was the NAA 32 Gaurdian, and the price for one of those darn near made a Python look cheap, not to mention the ungodly lead time to get one.

The Raven P25 vs LCP pic you used for comparison is pretty biased. Kind of like comparing a 9mm High Point to a Glock 26. Use one of the .25's mentioned above which are comparable in cost to the LCP, and the P25 and LCP look like Desert Eagles in comparison.

These photos of a Bauer .25 next to a Kel-Tec P-32 give an idea of why the .25 is still superior in some ways to the .32 and .380 in today's world.







Hopefully a .25 wouldn't be your first choice for a SD gun. But in my LEO days, I used to carry a Glock 22 on my hip, a Glock 27 on my ankle, and a Bauer .25 in my shirt pocket. Never had to resort to the little Glock or the Bauer, but it was very reassuring knowing that they were there!

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by 45_auto: I believe that there is some old saying about birds and bushes and hands that could be relevant to this situation.

Cute turn of a phrase, but of little practical use in most cases.

No one I know would try to surreptitiously draw a pocket pistol and then pump gas, or operate an ATM, or load the trunk, or put a child in a child seat while trying to hide said pistol by holding it in the hand on the off chance that an ambush might occur.

There are more reasons to not do that than there are to do it.

 

[45_auto]

There are more reasons to not do that than there are to do it.

No big deal. You make up your imaginary scenarios, I'll make up mine. In mine there are many more reasons to have a hidden gun ready in your hand than there are to try to fast draw a bad guy.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by 45_auto: In mine [( imaginary scenarios)] there are many more reasons to have a hidden gun ready in your hand than there are to try to fast draw a bad guy.

Alrighty then.

Perhaps you could describe a couple of imaginary outdoor situations in which you might have sufficient reason to draw your gun unnoticed, disengage the safety, keep it hidden in your hand, and still, in the event of your having to use it, have a lawful basis for not having done something else to preclude the immediate need for your use of force. And where that would be really be the prudent way to go about defending yourself.

We have already agreed that someone being kidnapped could make great use of a hideaway weapon of any kind. I am speaking of a violent criminal attack that occurs without warning. An ambush.

There is nothing "imaginary" about that. It is what prudent people train for.

"Try to fast draw"? Well, should someone appear from behind something with out warning and start approaching you very quickly in a threatening manner, you will likely have very little time to draw. You will have to move off the line of attack, draw while doing so, and shoot fast and effectively if necessary. You may succeed, and you may not.

You will not hide the gun in your hand. Right?

Now, unless the man is standing still (and if you do somehow have a basis for justifying the use of deadly force), would you really like to hit him effectively using a pistol with room on the grip for a finger and a half, virtually noo sights, and very little power?

 

[wally]

Well, should someone appear from behind something with out warning and start approaching you very quickly in a threatening manner

In which case your situational awareness has failed badly! Any time I am "surprised" by the appearance of something I'm alarmed and analyze the situation to remedy it to prevent a "next time". Fortunately all these "surprises" have been innocent -- neighbor approaching while I'm mowing the lawn, a car coming out of my "blind spot" without me noticing it going in, someone stepping out of a vehicle I'd assumed unoccupied, etc.

My personal experience, never having ever fired a shot in anger or having pointed a firearm at another human, has shown that merely taking a position that looks like I'm prepared to fight has had the sketchy individual move on without incident. Sometimes I had a gun, other times I wished I did but the bluff was not called. No harm no foul, gun in hand or not, its the best outcome, but it flows from a position of strength and awareness, not obliviousness and weakness.

 

[JohnBT]

In 1973 a folk singer released a song and even back then Jim Croce knew not to write about a .25.

"He got a .32 gun in his pocket for fun
He got a razor in his shoe

And it's bad, bad Leroy Brown"


And anyway, the gun was just for fun.

 

[browningguy]

You take your stick and tennis shoes, I'll use one of my .25's, guess who will win.

I've got a Beretta 21 and a Browning vest pocket, both are reliable and accurate enough. Also very easy to carry no matter what you wear.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by wally: In which case [should someone appear from behind something with out warning and start approaching you very quickly in a threatening manner]your situational awareness has failed badly!

Really? Do you really think that your "situational awareness" will tell you in advance that someone will step around from that dumpster, or the corner of that building, or out of that alley, or from around that Tahoe, and attack you?

Come now!

Your situational awareness can help you prepare for the eventuality, but it cannot predict the ambush.

 

[BLU]

Okay.... I knew the .22 Short HV would penetrate farther than the .25 ACP but I really expected the .25 to do better, (perhaps this is a harder wood? I don't know.)

Situational Awareness.... ALWAYS. It's kept me alive on duty and now in my new field of retirement. IMHO, you'll still get 'beat', (surprised/startled, etc.), just not nearly as much as if you went everywhere as though the furthest thing from your mind is your current surroundings. I steer clear of dumpsters, dark alleys, deep, dark, 'near the sidewalk' basement staircases, etc., anything that sets off my bells and whistles. What works for me may not for you, but it's served me very well so I'll stick to being cautious and aware, (and prepared to defend myself should I be confronted inappropriately). Hopefully I'll have more than the Bauer on me!

Here's that .25 ACP shot...

 

[Cee Zee]

That does not mean that anyone in his right mind should consider even for a moment relying upon an air pistol or a firearm using an extremely weak cartridge for self defense.

And as my photo showed in an earlier post a person can get a much more substantial caliber gun in the same size package as the veritable Saturday Night Special. I showed that a Ruger .380 was only slightly larger than the infamous Raven P-25, which had a lot to do with the revival of the term Saturday Night Special. Yes that term was used in the 19th century but not often. The much more common term for that type of gun at the time was a "suicide special". Derringers, pepper boxes and the like made up that group of guns. There was a reference to the SNS sometimes because the term referenced a vulgar term of the time to which cheap guns were connected. That term was "N...town Saturday Night" referring to a racist view of how certain groups spent their Saturday evenings.

The term "SNS" was not commonly used until the buildup that led to the 1968 Gun Control Act which referenced "junk guns" among other things. But the media had built up support using the term SNS. The government had banned the import of cheap "junk guns" and the people at Jennings designed the gun that would become the Raven Arms P-25. The term SNS became popular as a way of bashing the very cheap to buy "Ring Of Fire" guns that included various Jennings models and especially the new Raven Arms pistol. There were wild claims about how they were used in more crimes than any other type of gun but that was never based in fact the way I've heard things. It was more about gun grabbers fabricating facts. I've seen claims that as late as 1994, long after Raven Arms was burnt to the ground and Phoenix arms had taken over producing the Raven P-25, that SNS guns were responsible for more crimes than any other. Considering that this was after the birth of that wonder of modern culture, the drive by shooting, that seems absurd. Every self respecting gang banger had a Tec-9 in those days. Those started production in 1985 and it wasn't hard for a drug slinging gangster to get the money together for that gun. Even before that the Mac-9 and Mac-10 guns were being sold and often converted to full auto by aspiring gangsters. The crack epidemic fueled production of those guns and made it possible to own them and many other far higher priced weapons. Drug dealers were awash in handguns by that time and they were doing most of the shootings. They certainly were not using cheap guns like the Raven P-25. That was more of a 1970's gun by a big margin. It was a pocket piece for the disco crowd because it was very easy to conceal at a time when getting caught with a concealed gun meant prison. They could be tossed away without a large loss of money too. I never went to discos but I had a Raven back then because it was all I could afford for myself. I wanted a S&W .357 like all self respecting people of that time. I just couldn't afford one.

UPDATE:

For some reason my browser didn't show the comments of 45_auto before I posted the first part of this. So I'll address those comments now.

The Raven P25 vs LCP pic you used for comparison is pretty biased. Kind of like comparing a 9mm High Point to a Glock 26. Use one of the .25's mentioned above which are comparable in cost to the LCP, and the P25 and LCP look like Desert Eagles in comparison.

For one thing I've never in my life seen the Bauer you showed in your post. They were hardly common. The Raven was incredibly common. There were millions of them sold in the US alone. And for the record I paid $75 for my Raven. I found the box and the receipt not long ago. I bought it in 1975. Checking the inflation calculator that is the equivalent of $320 today. And what is the price of an LCP today? Without the laser you can get one here for $290. Hmmm... Doesn't that make my Raven MORE expensive than a Ruger LCP? I've seen the Rugers for a lot less than that amount actually.

Now let's talk about the Kel-Tec you showed. It can be bought for $245. That's a LOT less than the price that Raven brought in inflation adjusted dollars. Was the Raven a better gun? Heck no. But it is "comparable in cost" to many of the pocket guns of today.

Then there's the size of that Kel-Tec. It's 3.5" high and 5.1" long and it's the "lightest 32 ever made" according to the Kel-Tec web site. It's 3.6" high and 5.16" long. Anyone who thinks those are Desert Eagle type numbers has a different opinion than I do. I can't find the specs on the Raven. I'll have to get it out of the safe again and measure it myself I guess. Off hand it appears to be half an inch shorter both ways (height and length). Yes they have made smaller guns. But for an extra half inch to be able to carry a .380 over a .25 it's well worth it to me. I think many people would agree too.

 

[45_auto]

For one thing I've never in my life seen the Bauer you showed in your post. They were hardly common.

Guess that depends on where you lived. Couldn't go to any LGS near an army post down south without having to pass a case full of Baby Brownings and Bauers.

Hmmm... Doesn't that make my Raven MORE expensive than a Ruger LCP?

Not to me. Not sure why all the conniptions trying to prove how valuable your Raven is. Always has been a cheap cast zinc gun. But possibly I'm just a better shopper than you. I can get a new Raven today (now known as a Jiminez JA-25) for $120. Wouldn't that make your used one worth LESS than that in today's dollars? Never seen an LCP for less than $200:

http://www.kmmunitions.com/jimenez.html

Used Baby Brownings, Bauers, and LCP's all run in the $200-$300 range around here, while a Raven or Jiminez will be less than $100. Seems to me that if you're going to compare on size and price the Baby or Bauer vs the LCP would be a better comparison.

Good article on the history of the Baby and Bauer here:

http://weaponsman.com/?p=9361

The final question, then, is, are you armed and safe with this kind of gun? The final answer: if your alternative is a larger, more powerful pistol, then no. If your alternative is no gun at all, then yes. John Browning and Dieudonne Saive, who designed two of the greatest service pistols of the 20th Century, understood the First Rule of Gunfights, and that’s why they also designed .25s.

 

[Kleanbore]

The final question, then, is, are you armed and safe with this kind of gun? The final answer: if your alternative is a larger, more powerful pistol, then no. If your alternative is no gun at all, then yes.

I'm not sure I see any substantiation for the last part of that statement. I would not consider myself "safe" with a .25. Under some very limited and dire circumstances I might really want to have one, but not for self defense on the street. And if I were to choose to carry a hideaway for such circumstances, I would lean toward s Seecamp .32 ACP.

The article also contains this:

The principal downside of the .25 is that it’s just barely a gun. Most DGUs involve merely displaying the weapon, and it’s true that a Desert Eagle brandishes with a lot more authority than something that looks like Barbie’s First CC Pistol. And if you have to actually shoot somebody with it, as the saying goes, “you risk making him mad, and then he’s gonna want to fight.” The .25 has truly anemic performance, with most factory loads coming in at around 700 feet per second and around 65 foot/pounds of energy.

One can carry a cane anywhere, although you might have to trade your cane for a loaner.

And our pepper gel devices are smaller than a Baby Browning.

 

[1911Tuner]

I would not consider myself "safe" with a .25. Under some very limited and dire circumstances I might really want to have one, but not for self defense on the street. And if I were to choose to carry a hideaway for such circumstances, I would lean toward s Seecamp .32 ACP.

As to that, I don't feel safe with any pistol or revolver...only more safe than I do without one.

And for many people, the excellent little Seecamp is out of their price range. Last I heard, they were commander near collector prices.

One can carry a cane anywhere.

And for those of us who led reckless, foolish lives and wound up with torn rotator cuffs and bad backs...a striking weapon just isn't a good option. Any gun is better...even a mouse gun.

 

[wally]

Really? Do you really think that your "situational awareness" will tell you in advance that someone will step around from that dumpster, or the corner of that building, or out of that alley, or from around that Tahoe, and attack you?

Come now!

Really! I don't go near dumpsters, down alleys, or walk next to things where I have no sight line without enough distance to give me some hopefully adequate reaction time. If there is something a goblin could hide behind, I give it a wide berth! I've no need to be out and about in places I'm unfamiliar with late at night.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Guess that depends on where you lived. Couldn't go to any LGS near an army post down south without having to pass a case full of Baby Brownings and Bauers.



Not to me. Not sure why all the conniptions trying to prove how valuable your Raven is. Always has been a cheap cast zinc gun. But possibly I'm just a better shopper than you. I can get a new Raven today (now known as a Jiminez JA-25) for $120. Wouldn't that make your used one worth LESS than that in today's dollars? Never seen an LCP for less than $200:

http://www.kmmunitions.com/jimenez.html

Used Baby Brownings, Bauers, and LCP's all run in the $200-$300 range around here, while a Raven or Jiminez will be less than $100. Seems to me that if you're going to compare on size and price the Baby or Bauer vs the LCP would be a better comparison.

Good article on the history of the Baby and Bauer here:

http://weaponsman.com/?p=9361

Wow 45_auto I hadn't thought about the Bauer in 30 years. I remember them as being one of the best made SS guns in an era when some SS guns really had problems. Your post make me pull out of my library a 1982 Shooting Times Newstand Special about SS pistols that prominently mentions the Bauer. Who couldn't think a well made SS BB clone isn't great. I might have bought one back then but I was still drinking Jeff Cooper's kool-aid and believed his nonsensical opinion about the .25ACP that was posted earlier in this thread. I think the Kel-tec P32 is more ergonomical, 30% lighter, thinner, and of course more powerful, but the Bauer is still going to fit in a smaller pocket. The Bauer makes the Raven and Kel-tec really look like the made well enough to function and fugly pistols they are, and I am saying that as a P32 owner. You are a lucky guy to own a Bauer.

 

[JR47]

The fact that SOME .25 ACP guns were cheaply made isn't an issue. Look at the HighPoint, and then compare it's size, weight, and overall dimensions to any other like caliber gun. Yet, you don't see anyone using them to make such a comparison when talking about 9mm guns.

The Berettas, Ortgies, Walthers, and others were finely crafted weapons. They were smaller than a comparable Raven, no matter how many Ravens were sold. The other side of the Raven coin was that many police carried them as last ditch weapons, BECAUSE they worked. Something that cannot be said for some of the larger guns of their day.

As for being surprised. If they get that close, a larger gun isn't going to make it all better. Chances are that the larger gun, having to be better concealed, will be slower into action, not necessarily faster.

One can always "what if" anything to support their position. While some of what has been posted here is a bit far fetched, and things I'd never do, I fully agree that your scenarios make it all possible. I just wonder how many times those scenarios have ever occurred.

Looking at the actual information in the FBI UCR, in the declining numbers of violent crimes, it's going to become harder for these scenarios to occur in any numbers. How many of the people talking about "readiness", "reality", or "appropriate" have any current experience on the sharp end of the stick? It's been literally years since I went wandering in back alleys, or around dumpsters, in a bad neighborhood, especially at night.

If someone feels appropriately armed with a .25 ACP, so what? Are any of the detractors volunteering to guard them 24/7? It's all opinion. No matter what you carry, someone will tell you of a bullet sponge that absorbed multitudes of rounds in your favorite caliber, and kept coming. Handguns are, at best, weak little sisters. Looking at it, it would appear that they serve best as a deterrent. Rarely have I heard of a criminal who, upon looking at the opposing gun, laughed at the bore diameter.

 

[fastbolt]

Over the years of having seen a lot of revolvers and pistols come through range quals in the hands of cops and private citizens (I volunteered to help teach private citizen classes for some years on my off time), the 2 calibers that stand out in my mind for exhibiting the most stoppages and other malfunctions are .22's & .25's.

The .25 ACP doesn't have the same sort of ammo-related issues that can occur with the .22 rim-fires and their soft lead bullets, but the little .25 pistols seem to have exhibited more problems, overall, than the slightly larger .32 & .380 ACP's.

While some of the issues can be attributed to ammo or owner maintenance (dust bunnies, bone dry, worn out springs, etc), the really small size of many of the .25's (and .22's) seemed to have created more potential for issues resulting from owner handling and manipulation to occur - under even the minimal stress involved in range qual conditions - than when slightly larger pistols & revolvers were being used.

FWIW, it was fairly normal for the owners of the little .25's & .22's that experienced stoppages on the clock during quals to claim they'd never had that happen when just using their guns on a regular range.

 

[Onward Allusion]

Okay.... I knew the .22 Short HV would penetrate farther than the .25 ACP but I really expected the .25 to do better, (perhaps this is a harder wood? I don't know.)

Mouse calibers are greatly dependent on the gun. Some guns will shoot the bullet faster than others. Guns with less than 100% barrels will drain power from those little bullets.

 

[45_auto]

I think the Kel-tec P32 is more ergonomical, 30% lighter, thinner, and of course more powerful, but the Bauer is still going to fit in a smaller pocket.

Agree with you 100% on that. I've got a couple of Bauers, nothing comparable was available for many years. I switched to the Kel-Tec P32 in the pic over the Bauer as my "deep concealment" gun as soon as they came out about 15 years ago.

I'm probably one of the few people who was stupid enough to reload for my .25's and actually practice with them. Still have the bullet molds and dies, haven't used them in the past 15 years. Had to reload the .25's on a single stage, the Dillon couldn't handle them.

But I'm still not going to argue with anyone who's sticking a .25 in my face!

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by wally: Really! I don't go near dumpsters, down alleys, or walk next to things where I have no sight line without enough distance to give me some hopefully adequate reaction time. If there is something a goblin could hide behind, I give it a wide berth!

Excellent practice, if you can do it. But one cannot give wide berth to a fuel pump; sidewalks pass by things; and one will sometimes have to get closer to parked trucks than we might like.

Unless, of course, one never has to walk to one's car, or fuel it, or leave a store or eating establishment or walk in a mall.

I've no need to be out and about in places I'm unfamiliar with late at night.

Familiarity and light are nice but are no panacea.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

So now it's about tactics and strategies?

Wake me when it returns to the fascinating discussion of the .25 please.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by JR47: It's all opinion. No matter what you carry, someone will tell you ...

There is opinion, and there is informed opinion.

When it comes to wounding effectiveness, I will rely on the FBI report on that subject.

But that's just part of the picture. When it comes to shoot-ability (including the ability to draw and present, get the gun into action, and hit with it rapidly), I will rely on personal observations, the observations of other participants, and the observations of good instructors of defensive pistol shooting--observations of shooting under instruction.

One does have to make compromises. The IDPA guys and gals use guns that I would not like to try to conceal. "Deep concealment" guns fall short in combat performance, not that one would not have a place for backup.

Take a good defensive pistol shooting course and try a .25 Browning or a Seecamp or a Ruger LCP, or even a compact 3" "1911". See if you would like to use one in the gravest extreme.

Before forming a picture in one's mind about what using a gun (or a cane, or a shopping cart) in that circumstance might be like, it is necessary to realize that all defensive shooting involves the unexpected.

I recommend this.

And the associated training.

 

[Nom de Forum]

I'm probably one of the few people who was stupid enough to reload for my .25's and actually practice with them. Still have the bullet molds and dies, haven't used them in the past 15 years. Had to reload the .25's on a single stage, the Dillon couldn't handle them.

But I'm still not going to argue with anyone who's sticking a .25 in my face!

You must have the patience of Job to be able to tweeze those tiny little bullets into those almost as tiny case mouths! I just about loose my patience loading the relatively enormous 90gr. bullets into .380s and that was on a Dillon 300RL

That's not an argument I would make either.