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Match Fees?

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For USPSA you have to send something to them as they run a database that keeps you classified. The targets are at least $1 for every two.

Then there is insurance, tape, paint for steel, batteries for the timers, printed score sheets, pens, sticks for the stands, staples for the staple gun that are all consumable and must be replaced to even hold a match.

At some point someone had to buy all of the steel plates/poppers, target stands, barricades, timers, place to keep everything, not to mention put in the time and effort to start the club in the first place.

Not to mention if you want to buy swingers, plate racks, TX star, popup, or any other number of reactive targets to incorporate into the matches, all takes money.

$1-2/head is a joke, you spend more than that getting to the range, unless it is across the street from your house.
 
we pay $20 for 3 gun match at our club. We do use paper, but also have 20 knockdowns and some poppers for clays pigeons and a texas star.
That money partially goes towards more and better targets etc.
we pay $20 for a sass match and $25 for non club members. which in turn buys us more material for 6 stages of old west style building fronts, and of course , more steel targets.
We have to store the targets, steel container. Here in Maine we protect our stuff during winter months.
Its bring your own lunch, but cold bottled water is supplied.
Our club does trap every sunday (except winter) at $3 per string of 25 birds and no match fee.
 
Shooters should at least pay the going rate for a lane. Anything on top of that might be worth a look. If I were management I'd consider taking the initiative and explaining the costs of competition up front with a sign or a flyer, rather than risk the discontent of my highly valued customers.
 
Shooters should at least pay the going rate for a lane. Anything on top of that might be worth a look. If I were management I'd consider taking the initiative and explaining the costs of competition up front with a sign or a flyer, rather than risk the discontent of my highly valued customers.
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:) That might be tricky. I only know of one, very limited, regular match that takes place on a for-profit commercial range that has lane fees.

All of the matches I attend, or have attended in the last 20 years, took place on the facilities of private shooting clubs, and they are open to the match attendees as guests. The rates for membership and range use vary from $55 a year to $500 a year.

Most groups holding matches act as sub-committees or subordinate groups within a private shooting association or club with lots of members doing various things. They may be "given" the range (or part of the range) for their matches, or have to rent it. Many turn over all profits from their matches to the larger association and then are given an operating budget back each year. A few (like mine) are independent groups who maintain their own accounts and have a more specific financial arrangement with the host range.

Fees go to everything from property taxes and Land&Building funds, to paying the grounds keeper, to buying new light bulbs and toilet paper, to targets and steel, to coffee and doughnuts, to ink and paper for the score and stage sheets, paying the club's accountant for revenue filings to keep their NFP status, to heating and electric bills, to paying the lawyer to fight noise complaints, etc., etc., etc...

Either way, nobody makes profits off the shooters -- but there's nothing inherently wrong with that. If you think it's worth it, pay your money and shoot. If you don't, don't pay and don't shoot. Pretty simple.
 
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Sam1911 said:
:) That might be tricky. I only know of one, very limited, regular match that takes place on a for-profit commercial range that has lane fees.

All of the matches I attend, or have attended in the last 20 years, took place on the facilities of private shooting clubs, and they are open to the match attendees as guests. The rates for membership and range use vary from $55 a year to $500 a year.

Most groups holding matches act as sub-committees or subordinate groups within a private shooting association or club with lots of members doing various things. They may be "given" the range (or part of the range) for their matches, or have to rent it. Many turn over all profits from their matches to the larger association and then are given an operating budget back each year. A few (like mine) are independent groups who maintain their own accounts and have a more specific financial arrangement with the host range.

Fees go to everything from property taxes and Land&Building funds, to paying the grounds keeper, to buying new light bulbs and toilet paper, to targets and steel, to coffee and doughnuts, to ink and paper for the score and stage sheets, paying the club's accountant for revenue filings to keep their NFP status, to heating and electric bills, to paying the lawyer to fight noise complaints, etc., etc., etc...

Either way, nobody makes profits off the shooters -- but there's nothing inherently wrong with that. If you think it's worth it, pay your money and shoot. If you don't, don't pay and don't shoot. Pretty simple.
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That's all interesting but I was curious about two things. How the fees at my club compare to others (which appears not to be very favorable) and why does one match (USPSA or IDPA) cost twice what a rimfire match costs using the same venue, steel and timers or six times as much as a blackpowder match?
 
How the fees at my club compare to others (which appears not to be very favorable)
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Yeah, a bit high in general. But then, it's CA. Check your real estate prices and cost of living! :)

... and why does one match (USPSA or IDPA) cost twice what a rimfire match costs using the same venue, steel and timers or six times as much as a blackpowder match?
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Probably just how the match directors and club have chosen to price it. The rimfire and BP groups may be entirely running on the donations of time and equipment from the core members. They may not be accounting for any cost to replace their stuff. They may not be required to pay rental on the range (depends on the different sub-groups' official relationship to the parent club). They may have no official national organization they are affiliated with, which needs to be paid (however inexpensive that really is). They may simply not have a desire to build an account balance for their organization.

In our case, over many years of operation, our IDPA club has been able to build the resources to purchase things, or to contribute substantially to range improvements at the parent organization. It is kind of nice not to have to make a real long-term plan or hold a bake sale or something when you want to buy a new target shed or a charging target device or a range vehicle.

If you really think there's some reason you need to know why they charge what they do, I guess just ask them.

In the end, though, they're either giving you something you value more than $30, or they aren't. Pay and shoot or don't pay and don't shoot. :)
 
Kynoch said:
That's all interesting but I was curious about two things. How the fees at my club compare to others (which appears not to be very favorable) and why does one match (USPSA or IDPA) cost twice what a rimfire match costs using the same venue, steel and timers or six times as much as a blackpowder match?
Click to expand...

Yeah I had questions like this from my rifle shooters too.

"Why do I pay $5 for your rimfire aggregate course, but $10 for NRA Smallbore, if we're shooting the same targets, from the same positions?"

The easy answer is "$4.25 of each entry for Smallbore goes to the NRA."

The longer answer is "I am required to do X, Y, and Z for NRA smallbore which all cost even more time, and charging $9.25 isn't convenient. Most people would hand over a $10 bill anyway. The additional $0.75 cents covers postage, the cost of the check I have to write each month, printing and posting the standings bulletins each month (per NRA requirement), and so on."

Rimfire aggregate is simple, shoot the targets, turn in your scores, and get a ribbon at the end of the day if you place. NRA Smallbore involves a bit more time, and a match entry fee must be turned over to them.

(Same issue with High Power Sporting Rifle, which I run as a non-approved entry-level event, vs. NRA High Power and Midrange Prone, which I run as NRA approved events; two different costs to participants, because some of the money goes off to the NRA!)

ETA: Next year I have to increase the costs of the match because I'd factored break even on just targets. Between staples, awards, target pasters, shipping costs, fuel costs to get to the event (which I can't shoot in as an official), pens (people keep stealing mine), printing costs for score cards, gas to run in to town to deposit checks (who the heck writes a check for $10??? obviously more than one.. sigh), and so on. I also issued awards on the NRA marksmanship program and didn't factor in how fast shooters would be earning medals and certificates through it... over $300 in costs went to paper and medals for shooters who progressed through the marksmanship qualification program ranks in 2014.

I kept a ledger this year of every expense related to the shooting event, vs. income, and came out in the hole nearly $700!

So the cheap $5 / 10 match entry fees are gone, for good, as soon as a new year starts. My program was published in the NRA shooting guide this year and I'm reluctant to make changes mid-year. But at the start of 2015?

I'm betting that my "casual" event fees will be $15 or $20, and my NRA-Approved fees will be $20 or $25.

Like most "startup businesses" (which this is, on a small not-for-profit scale), I was blindsided by a LOT of costs I wasn't anticipating. :)
 
to deposit checks (who the heck writes a check for $10???
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That is pretty amazing

Our local match are cash only...110 shooters

The smaller matches I attend are not only cash only, but exact change (only 30 shooters)
 
Sam1911 said:
Yeah, a bit high in general. But then, it's CA. Check your real estate prices and cost of living!
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The land is owned by CA taxpayers.

Sam1911 said:
Probably just how the match directors and club have chosen to price it. The rimfire and BP groups may be entirely running on the donations of time and equipment from the core members. They may not be accounting for any cost to replace their stuff. They may not be required to pay rental on the range (depends on the different sub-groups' official relationship to the parent club). They may have no official national organization they are affiliated with, which needs to be paid (however inexpensive that really is). They may simply not have a desire to build an account balance for their organization.
Click to expand...

Costs between the IDPA and USPSA vs. the Action Rimfire would be identical except for paper targets.

Sam1911 said:
In our case, over many years of operation, our IDPA club has been able to build the resources to purchase things, or to contribute substantially to range improvements at the parent organization. It is kind of nice not to have to make a real long-term plan or hold a bake sale or something when you want to buy a new target shed or a charging target device or a range vehicle.
Click to expand...

Same at my club.

Sam1911 said:
If you really think there's some reason you need to know why they charge what they do, I guess just ask them.
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone would know. The good MD's would likely say something like "it's the same price as when I inherited the match." The snotty ones would immediately get defensive.

Sam1911 said:
In the end, though, they're either giving you something you value more than $30, or they aren't. Pay and shoot or don't pay and don't shoot.
Click to expand...

Naw. There should be some logic to the whole thing. When one discipline costs 2x of another on the same range using the same steel, paint and shot timers, it raises questions. The "take it or leave it" retort does nothing but turn people off.

I very quietly ignore match invitations when the price seems out of whack. The mailer gets filed in the trash or the email gets deleted without a word. Still I do wonder who is benefiting because when the beneficiary is something that most want to support ($$$ for new targets, shot timers, buildings, etc.) it's typically well publicized.
 
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Trent said:
Yeah I had questions like this from my rifle shooters too.

"Why do I pay $5 for your rimfire aggregate course, but $10 for NRA Smallbore, if we're shooting the same targets, from the same positions?"

The easy answer is "$4.25 of each entry for Smallbore goes to the NRA."

The longer answer is "I am required to do X, Y, and Z for NRA smallbore which all cost even more time, and charging $9.25 isn't convenient. Most people would hand over a $10 bill anyway. The additional $0.75 cents covers postage, the cost of the check I have to write each month, printing and posting the standings bulletins each month (per NRA requirement), and so on."

Rimfire aggregate is simple, shoot the targets, turn in your scores, and get a ribbon at the end of the day if you place. NRA Smallbore involves a bit more time, and a match entry fee must be turned over to them.

(Same issue with High Power Sporting Rifle, which I run as a non-approved entry-level event, vs. NRA High Power and Midrange Prone, which I run as NRA approved events; two different costs to participants, because some of the money goes off to the NRA!)

ETA: Next year I have to increase the costs of the match because I'd factored break even on just targets. Between staples, awards, target pasters, shipping costs, fuel costs to get to the event (which I can't shoot in as an official), pens (people keep stealing mine), printing costs for score cards, gas to run in to town to deposit checks (who the heck writes a check for $10??? obviously more than one.. sigh), and so on. I also issued awards on the NRA marksmanship program and didn't factor in how fast shooters would be earning medals and certificates through it... over $300 in costs went to paper and medals for shooters who progressed through the marksmanship qualification program ranks in 2014.

I kept a ledger this year of every expense related to the shooting event, vs. income, and came out in the hole nearly $700!

So the cheap $5 / 10 match entry fees are gone, for good, as soon as a new year starts. My program was published in the NRA shooting guide this year and I'm reluctant to make changes mid-year. But at the start of 2015?

I'm betting that my "casual" event fees will be $15 or $20, and my NRA-Approved fees will be $20 or $25.

Like most "startup businesses" (which this is, on a small not-for-profit scale), I was blindsided by a LOT of costs I wasn't anticipating. :)
Click to expand...

That's why I started this thread -- I wanted to know if there was some sanctioning fees for certain disciplines/organizations? It sounds like there are for NRA sanctioned shoots.

Why in the world would you pay $4.45/shooter/match to the NRA? Do they maintain a national scorecard or rating system?
 
to deposit checks (who the heck writes a check for $10???
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A drafting class I took in college require the use of a certain paper that had to be bought from the engineering dept and they wouldn't accept cash. Had to write a check for $1.
 
Sam1911 said:
Yeah, a bit high in general. But then, it's CA. Check your real estate prices and cost of living!
Click to expand...

The land is owned by CA taxpayers.
Click to expand...
:D I simply meant that everything in CA is a bit more expensive than most other parts of the country. That your match fees for IDPA might be $10 more than ours doesn't surprise me.

Costs between the IDPA and USPSA vs. the Action Rimfire would be identical except for paper targets.
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Ok. If you say so. I don't know that. Costs for affiliation and score-keeping between IDPA and USPSA aren't even the same, but if you've looked into it and know that the costs are the same, great.

Sam1911 said:
In our case, over many years of operation, our IDPA club has been able to build the resources to purchase things, or to contribute substantially to range improvements at the parent organization. It is kind of nice not to have to make a real long-term plan or hold a bake sale or something when you want to buy a new target shed or a charging target device or a range vehicle.
Click to expand...

Same at my club.
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Ok. Is that what your club is doing with the extra $10 per shooter? Do you know? Have you sought that information if it matters to you?

Sam1911 said:
If you really think there's some reason you need to know why they charge what they do, I guess just ask them.
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone would know. The good MD's would likely say something like "it's the same price as when I inherited the match." The snotty ones would immediately get defensive.
Click to expand...
Wait. You don't think they'd know what they do with the money? "Why" is a question that could be partially answered by historic precedent, but they have to be doing SOMETHING with the fees, even if it is just putting them into a CD. If you feel you should know, you're going to have to ask. If you seem like the sort of person who's likely to be an asset to the organization, they'll probably take the time to explain it to you. Of course I'm sure you understand that if you're sort of an outsider who just occasionally shows up, they might not really be all that interested in sharing all the club's financial arrangements with you.

Sam1911 said:
In the end, though, they're either giving you something you value more than $30, or they aren't. Pay and shoot or don't pay and don't shoot.
Click to expand...

Naw. There should be some logic to the whole thing. When one discipline costs 2x of another on the same range using the same steel, paint and shot timers, it raises questions. The "take it or leave it" retort does nothing but turn people off.
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Well, maybe some. I mean, they obviously have enough people who come out and pay their money each month that they don't see a need to change their practices. Their answers, if the question has even come up, must be good enough to satisfy the shooters that their money is going somewhere useful.

Or, again, that this is simply the rate they pay if they want to shoot that match, which is what it comes down to in the end.

I very quietly ignore match invitations when the price seems out of whack. The mailer gets filed in the trash or the email gets deleted without a word.
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And that's perfectly reasonable of you. If you don't feel you're getting $XX value out of the match being offered, don't go.

If knowing your money is going to club fees, or national organizations, or into a new prop fund, or whatever else is going to make you feel better about paying more than you think the match experience is "worth" then you're going to have to ask them what they do with the money.

In the end, supply and demand rules the world, though. If the price is too high for the market, not enough shooters will come and pay to make it worth while for them to hold the match. If they're getting swamped, raising the price might be a good way to hold match attendance numbers to a manageable level. Holding a 5-7 stage monthly match with 10 staff on hand, but 100 shooters is a royal pain, and a great way to burn out your staff. A match fee high enough to knock that number back down to 40-50 makes a lot of sense. Don't know if that applies to your case, but it might -- or might have at one point.

Still I do wonder who is benefiting because when the beneficiary is something that most want to support ($$$ for new targets, shot timers, buildings, etc.) it's typically well publicized.
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It is? We don't advertise what we might be planning to buy, or what fees in excess of costs might go to support. We put on a match and shooters come out. Honestly, in all the years I've been a Match Director, not one shooter has ever asked me what we do with the money.
 
Why can I go shoot a match for half a day and it costs less that going to a two hour movie? I don't even get to shoot anything in a movie!
 
It's like most other things in life.
The people who are really into these things care less about the fee and more about the quality of the event.
The better the event, the less complaints about the cost.
Especially for those who only go to one match per month, which according to the numbers, is most of us.
 
Detritus said:
At my local club the range fees seem pretty much set at $20-25 for "members" of the gun club/range or of the local Org (USPSA/IDPA/etc. club) running the match, and $30-40 for non-members.

and this seems to generally hold true through disciplines with some variations, like the fact that your $20 gets you ammo (and maybe a loaner rifle if you're a first timer) at the CMP Garand match. and I think the 3-Gun matches were of higher cost.
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That's quite interesting. You're about the first to report similar fees to there ones here locally and you're in TX, not CA.
 
g.willikers said:
It's like most other things in life.
The people who are really into these things care less about the fee and more about the quality of the event.
The better the event, the less complaints about the cost.
Especially for those who only go to one match per month, which according to the numbers, is most of us.
Click to expand...

I don't see any correlation between the price charged and the quality of the event here locally. I have shot very inexpensive matches that were superbly set-up and managed. I have also experienced the exact opposite.

I used to play a lot of golf until the green fees became ridiculous and golf carts (along with their own fees) became required more and more. When there was a difference in price it typically had to do with the quality of the experience -- twilight golf, dawn golf, etc. It wasn't as if one Saturday it cost $$ to play 18 and the next Sunday it was $$$$$ on the same course at the same time.
 
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You're about the first to report similar fees to there ones here locally and you're in TX, not CA.
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I'm also located in what amounts to "Greater Houston", many things here are higher priced than they would be elsewhere.

But then again in my various travels across the Southeast in the past 4-5 years a $20 is a pretty much average match fee.
 
drawnee said:
Considering inflation, $30 is not high priced. We paid $10 over 30 years ago, when gas was about $1.20 per gallon. If you want to do really well, at high levels in IPSC, you'll have to fire 50,000 rds per year. For a working stiff, that means lead recovery, almost commerical level bullet casting and a progressive reloader. Match fees and travel expenses will cost you at least 5k per year and can easily be twice that much.
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So? Your comments fail to address why different matches at the exact same venue using the exact same steel, paint, shot timers etc. differ so much where I shoot.

You also don't address why some clubs charge $10.00 for an IDPA/USPSA/SC/etc. match while some charge 3-4X that.
 
Kynoch said:
So? Your comments fail to address why different matches at the exact same venue using the exact same steel, paint, shot timers etc. differ so much where I shoot.

You also don't address why some clubs charge $10.00 for an IDPA/USPSA/SC/etc. match while some charge 3-4X that.
Click to expand...

Capitalism. Supply and demand. What the market will bear. The fact that some matches are being run at or below costs does not mean others need to be run with the same lack of profit.

I'd happily pay more for a well run match 30 minutes away compared with a poorly run match 2 hours or more away. I also happily pay more for matches when the organizers are very kind to new shooters, women, and children. Making my guests feel welcome is important to me. I'm also happy to pay more for matches that communicate clearly what to expect, rules, etc.

In the big scheme of things, the match fee is much less than the costs of ammo, equipment, and transportation. I do not mind paying more for a quality experience.
 
So? Your comments fail to address why different matches at the exact same venue using the exact same steel, paint, shot timers etc. differ so much where I shoot.
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Did you go ask them, yet? We've given you all the various reasons why various clubs charge different rates for different activities. The only folks who can answer why YOUR club does are the guys running YOUR club's matches.

It's kind of silly to ask US for anything more than a list of the PROBABLE reasons. You don't seem satisfied with what their reasons might be, so go ask them and let us know what their reasons are.

You also don't address why some clubs charge $10.00 for an IDPA/USPSA/SC/etc. match while some charge 3-4X that
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Again...some operate at a loss (i.e.: on the backs and wallets of the regular, local crew). Some have financial obligations to a host club (i.e.: rental/dues). Some save a significant portion of each match fee for improvements and development of the range and matches. Some have fees they have to pay, per shooter, to a sanctioning organization (USPSA). Some provide lunch. Some probably use a certain fee level to regulate the size of their turnout. Etc., etc. Every club is different.

Not sure what you're so adamant to discover, really. Only the match director and his club officers could tell you specifically how they determined their fees. You'd quite literally have to get the answers from them. And I'm not sure I'd tell a random stranger that sort of information without a good reason.
 
I'll point out another possible/probable reason:

IDPA, USPSA, and other "action" or "practical" gun sports have historically had a rather tough row to hoe with older, traditionally-minded shooting and sportsmen's clubs and ranges. All the running & gunning, plus hogging up multiple bays/pits/ranges, "rapid" fire, holstered guns, and folks "playing cop" (or whatever the fogies used to say) did not sit well with the deer slayers and duck busters and bullseye shooters of last century. And still doesn't in some places.

One thing that REALLY turned a bunch of stodgy old curmudgeons around (and this was the case at more than a handful of clubs I shoot at, personally) was just how much money the practical gun games could bring in to the host club. When a Sportsman's club was faced with a sudden additional influx of $500+ each month in match fees, just from one organization, the doors swung open wide!

So there may indeed be a certain historic precedent to this. A rimfire bullseye league might have been welcomed by the handful of elderly plaid shirts who were running the club in the '70s and '80s, and has never been saddled with a demand to bring in more than that $5 match fee. But USPSA and IDPA groups had to lever their way in to the club's good graces with a promise $20-$30 a shooter ... to ease the old guys' aching heads from all that racing around blasting away nonsense they were asked to put up with. Filthy lucre can work wonders getting old grumps unstuck from their comfortable patch of mud.

Just another possibility to add to your collection.
 
Sam1911 said:
:) That might be tricky. I only know of one, very limited, regular match that takes place on a for-profit commercial range that has lane fees.

All of the matches I attend, or have attended in the last 20 years, took place on the facilities of private shooting clubs, and they are open to the match attendees as guests. The rates for membership and range use vary from $55 a year to $500 a year.

Most groups holding matches act as sub-committees or subordinate groups within a private shooting association or club with lots of members doing various things. They may be "given" the range (or part of the range) for their matches, or have to rent it. Many turn over all profits from their matches to the larger association and then are given an operating budget back each year. A few (like mine) are independent groups who maintain their own accounts and have a more specific financial arrangement with the host range.

Fees go to everything from property taxes and Land&Building funds, to paying the grounds keeper, to buying new light bulbs and toilet paper, to targets and steel, to coffee and doughnuts, to ink and paper for the score and stage sheets, paying the club's accountant for revenue filings to keep their NFP status, to heating and electric bills, to paying the lawyer to fight noise complaints, etc., etc., etc...

Either way, nobody makes profits off the shooters -- but there's nothing inherently wrong with that. If you think it's worth it, pay your money and shoot. If you don't, don't pay and don't shoot. Pretty simple.
Click to expand...
Funny, the only place I've seen matches lately is on a private range. Well, we're an easy lot as long as things are explained up front, most of us.
 
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