Pepper Spray--The Truth

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HexHead said:
Is the Kimber unit more effective than the sprays?
Click to expand...
Yes and no. Most people are drawn to it for its size and gun-like appearance. The thing I like most about it is the fact that it doesn't use propellant. It uses a charge. That is very helpful for those in hot climates and who have to deal with the temperature issues I mentioned above. The drawback though is that it uses gel OC. Gel OC is, by far, the hardest type of OC to use. The reason is that it doesn't run. For example, if the perp was wearing sunglasses, the OC would never run into their eyes, unlike the other spray patterns. The other major drawback, in my opinion, is the number of shots. Two is just not enough. A comparable size "liquid" OC will yield 8-20 shots, depending on size.

Thanks for the question

OCT
 
Thanks for taking our questions. Here's a multi part one for you. It's been my experience that people who live in places where it's difficult to get a permit to carry a concealed gun also typically don't carry pepper spray (or any other less lethal weapon.) Has this been your experience as well?

What are your thoughts on the moral responsibility to carry a less lethal form of defense like pepper spray when also carrying a firearm? Should it be a legal requirement in your opinion?

It seems like one or more recent examples of police shooting and killing criminals could have been safely handled using pepper spray. Is there is trend in law enforcement as far as you know to go directly to the gun when under attack rather than pepper spray? Is this taught and is it due to risk based upon actual data? Thank you very much for your time.
 
Aragon said:
Thanks for taking our questions. Here's a multi part one for you. It's been my experience that people who live in places where it's difficult to get a permit to carry a concealed gun also typically don't carry pepper spray (or any other less lethal weapon.) Has this been your experience as well?

What are your thoughts on the moral responsibility to carry a less lethal form of defense like pepper spray when also carrying a firearm? Should it be a legal requirement in your opinion?

It seems like one or more recent examples of police shooting and killing criminals could have been safely handled using pepper spray. Is there is trend in law enforcement as far as you know to go directly to the gun when under attack rather than pepper spray? Is this taught and is it due to risk based upon actual data? Thank you very much for your time.
Click to expand...
My pleasure Aargon, and thank you for taking the time to ask.

These are all very good and deep questions.

My experience has been that in places with no CCW and/or very strict laws regarding SD people do not carry less than lethals. The reason? They just assumed the sprays or stun-guns or whatever where illegal too. The never looked into the actual laws in their location. In the US, pepper spray is legal in all 50 states. Each state has its own rules and regs, but it is legal everywhere in the US. The same can't be said of stun-guns, Tasers, or even kubotons.

I think having a less than lethal option makes sense. Not every situation one may encounter will require deadly force. This, of course, varies per state and location. The thresholds are very different place to place. The classic example is of the "aggressive pan-handler". Deadly force in that situation? Not likely. But you can spray his ass and keep it moving.

I won't touch the "the police should have used bean bag shot/OC/Taser instead of XYZ" These are so case depended. It would be almost impossible to for me in the context of this thread to address the what-ifs. I appreciate the question, but it may be a little out of the scope of this thread. That said, one area where I absolutely can say that OC would most likely have been a better option are the cases where aggressive dogs are shot and killed. It is my belief, based on my experience and knowledge of the product, that OC would have had the same exact affect, stopping the dog. I'm not referring the mad dog pit bull who just attacked two toddlers type of scenarios. I'm referring to the times when LE are in someone's backyard for a call, and the canine is just doing what it is "supposed" to do. The dog should not be shot and killed in my opinion, when the OC would have stopped the dog cold in his tracks...and sparred its life.
 
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This is a great thread. This should me made into an FAQ of sorts.

Jumping off from your last answer, OC-Trainer, what has the research shown about using OC on dogs in general? Is it true that certain breeds, or individual specimens, are highly resident? Or this is anecdotal evidence confounded by circumstances rather than breed? I have several scientific papers on dog aggression and attacks I've been reading lately (with surprising findings) and was curious how OC might fit into this.
 
glistam said:
This is a great thread. This should me made into an FAQ of sorts.

Jumping off from your last answer, OC-Trainer, what has the research shown about using OC on dogs in general? Is it true that certain breeds, or individual specimens, are highly resident? Or this is anecdotal evidence confounded by circumstances rather than breed? I have several scientific papers on dog aggression and attacks I've been reading lately (with surprising findings) and was curious how OC might fit into this.
Click to expand...
Thanks, I appreciate the kind words!

OC works on all mammals and cause the same physiological response. It is even more pronounced in mammals like dogs and bears because their sense of smell is so keen. Sometimes the pungency of OC alone is all it takes for a dog to turn tail and run. It is like hitting a brick wall a lot of times for dogs.

Google this... TRPV1 Receptor. Warning it is very heavy reading. It is also know as the "capsaicin receptor." In a nutshell, every mammal is born with this receptor. This is the exact receptor that pepper spray activates. So, regardless of breed (in dogs), race, ethnicity, etc, etc. It will work. Elephants in India are controlled at times by just hanging Ghost peppers for area denial. Really interesting stuff what OC does to mammals.

Thanks for the questions!

OCT
 
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Here is a little known fact: Defense-Tech, UDAP, and MACE Brand are all basically the same company.

Check out my analogy:

Defense-Tech=Banana Rebublic
UDAP = Gap
MACE = Old Navy

OCT
 
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This is my truth about pepper spray. I had a full week planned to go flyfishing in the Colorado Mountains. All small streams, well plotted before I left home. I flew, so did not take a gun. Instead, I bought the biggest and most powerful pepper squirter I could find, as some of my intended fishing was in bear country. (I've since learned it's illegal to take the stuff on a commercial flight, even in the luggage. This was way before 9/11.) Anyway, one day when the trout didn't want my flies so much, I decided I would test the spray for distance and pattern. I sprayed a rock some feet away, and re-holstered the container without cleaning the nozzle. I had a two hour drive back to my motel. Placed the spray container in the cup holder of my rented jeep. While driving, I inadvertently touched the nozzle of the spray can. In the middle of nowhere on a dirt road at night, I stopped to pee. Apparently, pepper spray mixes well with moisture. About 10 minutes on down the road, I thought I was going to die. You just can't imagine. I thought for sure it was fire. So, if you ever have to squirt someone and you really want him to go away, that's the place to squirt him.
 
short barrel said:
This is my truth about pepper spray. I had a full week planned to go flyfishing in the Colorado Mountains. All small streams, well plotted before I left home. I flew, so did not take a gun. Instead, I bought the biggest and most powerful pepper squirter I could find, as some of my intended fishing was in bear country. (I've since learned it's illegal to take the stuff on a commercial flight, even in the luggage. This was way before 9/11.) Anyway, one day when the trout didn't want my flies so much, I decided I would test the spray for distance and pattern. I sprayed a rock some feet away, and re-holstered the container without cleaning the nozzle. I had a two hour drive back to my motel. Placed the spray container in the cup holder of my rented jeep. While driving, I inadvertently touched the nozzle of the spray can. In the middle of nowhere on a dirt road at night, I stopped to pee. Apparently, pepper spray mixes well with moisture. About 10 minutes on down the road, I thought I was going to die. You just can't imagine. I thought for sure it was fire. So, if you ever have to squirt someone and you really want him to go away, that's the place to squirt him.
Click to expand...
Great story and I feel your pain. Although water is part of the "antidote" I also just spreads around the OC, and the fire even more. After taking live hits for qualifications, just when you think you've removed it all, you hit the showers. Well, if you forget to decon your hair too, then guess where all the OC winds up while showering...fire down below for sure.

Thank you for sharing that.

OCT
 
OC-Trainer

Thank you for starting this thread. I have already significantly increased my own knowledge base on pepper spray, just from reading up to this point.

I do not have any questions at this time, but appreciate those who have posted and your straightforward answers. I will be coming back for days to come, I am sure. This is what I would call a 'hot read'.

Thank you again, and keep up the good work!
 
il.bill said:
OC-Trainer

Thank you for starting this thread. I have already significantly increased my own knowledge base on pepper spray, just from reading up to this point.

I do not have any questions at this time, but appreciate those who have posted and your straightforward answers. I will be coming back for days to come, I am sure. This is what I would call a 'hot read'.

Thank you again, and keep up the good work!
Click to expand...
Many thanks for that il.bill! I appreciate your kind words. I'm a straight up guy. If a product is garbage, I'm definitely going to say it. For example, I really like almost all of Def-tech and UDAP, but have little to no love for Mace brand. All the same company essentially, but there is good a bad, like most things in life. I'll keep answering, for as long as those keep asking...

All the best!

OCT
 
...And guys just for the record, almost all of my posts are probably going to have the "last edited" tag under them. Only because I'm fanatical about typos.

OCT
 
OC-Trainer said:
My pleasure Aargon, and thank you for taking the time to ask.

These are all very good and deep questions.

My experience has been that in places with no CCW and/or very strict laws regarding SD people do not carry less than lethals. The reason? They just assumed the sprays or stun-guns or whatever where illegal too. The never looked into the actual laws in their location. In the US, pepper spray is legal in all 50 states. Each state has its own rules and regs, but it is legal everywhere in the US. The same can't be said of stun-guns, Tasers, or even kubotons.

I think having a less than lethal option makes sense. Not every situation one may encounter will require deadly force. This, of course, varies per state and location. The thresholds are very different place to place. The classic example is of the "aggressive pan-handler". Deadly force in that situation? Not likely. But you can spray his ass and keep it moving. Thanks again for your insight.

I won't touch the "the police should have used bean bag shot/OC/Taser instead of XYZ" These are so case depended. It would be almost impossible to for me in the context of this thread to address the what-ifs. I appreciate the question, but it may be a little out of the scope of this thread. That said, one area where I absolutely can say that OC would most likely have been a better option are the cases where aggressive dogs are shot and killed. It is my belief, based on my experience and knowledge of the product, that OC would have had the same exact affect, stopping the dog. I'm not referring the mad dog pit bull who just attacked two toddlers type of scenarios. I'm referring to the times when LE are in someone's backyard for a call, and the canine is just doing what it is "supposed" to do. The dog should not be shot and killed in my opinion, when the OC would have stopped the dog cold in his tracks...and sparred its life.
Click to expand...

Thanks very much for your insight. More and more I believe that anyone who chooses to legally carry a firearm should also be required to carry pepper spray. While a gun may be the "ultimate deterrent", in many ways they make things more dangerous for both the victim and the criminal.

More dangerous for the victim because if they are attacked and a firearm is recovered, it might then be used on them. More dangerous for the criminal because it might be the fear of having their own gun used on them that causes a victim to fire. I think another option should be mandatory.
 
Aaragon,

Some years ago Gary Kleck at Florida State University did a study of USDJ records which indicated that the self defense statagy that resulted in the FEWEST injured, hospitalized or dead victims was the carrying of a fire arm.

Injuries to the victim were few with a fire arm than even total compliance with the attacker, flight, and making noise.

Just thought you might want to know. You might do a search of the NRA's American Rifleman magazines for an article on the report.

-kBob
 
OCT,

Interesting what you said about dogs. I sprayed a black lab. I had been using the spray on the ground to discourage him from digging up the house hold well pump. (This after trying chicken wire on the ground which he ripped through, chili powder liberally sprinkled on the ground and on the advice of my vet placing moth balls in the dirt, which he ate like pepper mints)

I was wearing an M17A1 Protetive mask with hood while using the spray as I had gotten a whiff once before and had a great deal of experience with older CS and CN sprays and smokes and solid powder.

When the dog had no reaction to the spray on the ground I sprayed the cone above the black lab and he began to leap about in play mode with tail wagging. So I sprayed my own dog directly to see if the spray was potent at which point he licked his face and resumed play behavior.

Obviously the spray was no good so I removed my protective mask in frustration. The dog really thought it was funny when I dropped to all fours and shut my eyes in pain and began croaking for my wife to help me. She stepped out of the back door about 15 feet away and promptly went back in the house leaving me to the OC and the lab.

My current vet (not the one that gave me the very bad advise about moth balls) has said that Black Labs are the most pain tollerent dogs in the world which is why pain training seldom works on them.

OC may have the same effects on all mammals but at least one Black Lab did not seem to care and seemed to think it great fun.

Comments?


-kBob (sorry to those that read this before, but I want to know what he has to say)
 
OCT,

So what is the best way to select a spray for oneself after determining which spray pattern is more appropriate for one's application?

How do I tell from the labeling which is hotter? Should you base it on pure percentage? or other info?

Your thoughts on the combo sprays? CS/OC combos for example

What about the VEXOR technology is it truly novel or gimmicky?

Where is the best available training for the civilian?

How does a big name agency like FBI/SECT SVC etc. select spray? Is it very rigorous? or driven my pricing?

Thanks again, for this wealth of info. I have learned more in a few post that would take me a great while to decipher on my own.
 
Aragon said:
Thanks very much for your insight. More and more I believe that anyone who chooses to legally carry a firearm should also be required to carry pepper spray. While a gun may be the "ultimate deterrent", in many ways they make things more dangerous for both the victim and the criminal.

More dangerous for the victim because if they are attacked and a firearm is recovered, it might then be used on them. More dangerous for the criminal because it might be the fear of having their own gun used on them that causes a victim to fire. I think another option should be mandatory.
Click to expand...
My pleasure. Happy to help

OCT
 
Now for a real question:

How many times have you been sprayed?
 
As a former LEO before stun guns, all we had was MACE/Pepper spray besides the night stick and handgun. Just from experience, remember your dad's advice when you was a lad...never P/spray into the wind.
:rolleyes:
 
Field Tester said:
OCT,
Perhaps talking about the mucous membrane in mammals might illustrate how we are affected vs. birds etc...
Click to expand...
Sure. Pepper spray/OC works by way of inflammation, not pain. Tear gas, for example, works on pain. Back in the 1970's, the FBI noticed a lot of defense spray failures when used on someone under the influence of drugs or alcohol. They set out to find a more reliable solutions. Pepper spray as we know it today was the result. When OC activates the capsaicin receptor, the body responds be inflaming the mucosa. This inflammation is what causes the classic OC symptoms i.e. eyes snapping shut involuntarily, pupils dilate, mucous starts flowing from the sinuses etc. Since this inflammation is involuntary, it works even when someone is temporarily unable to feel pain.

Regarding birds not being affected by OC: It all comes down to natural selection. Birds do have mucosa ,but are not affected by OC, because birds help spread the seeds of the pepper plants. The bird needs the plant, the plant needs the bird. Natural selection at its finest.

OCT
 
kBob said:
OCT,

Interesting what you said about dogs. I sprayed a black lab. I had been using the spray on the ground to discourage him from digging up the house hold well pump. (This after trying chicken wire on the ground which he ripped through, chili powder liberally sprinkled on the ground and on the advice of my vet placing moth balls in the dirt, which he ate like pepper mints)

I was wearing an M17A1 Protetive mask with hood while using the spray as I had gotten a whiff once before and had a great deal of experience with older CS and CN sprays and smokes and solid powder.

When the dog had no reaction to the spray on the ground I sprayed the cone above the black lab and he began to leap about in play mode with tail wagging. So I sprayed my own dog directly to see if the spray was potent at which point he licked his face and resumed play behavior.

Obviously the spray was no good so I removed my protective mask in frustration. The dog really thought it was funny when I dropped to all fours and shut my eyes in pain and began croaking for my wife to help me. She stepped out of the back door about 15 feet away and promptly went back in the house leaving me to the OC and the lab.

My current vet (not the one that gave me the very bad advise about moth balls) has said that Black Labs are the most pain tollerent dogs in the world which is why pain training seldom works on them.

OC may have the same effects on all mammals but at least one Black Lab did not seem to care and seemed to think it great fun.

Comments?


-kBob (sorry to those that read this before, but I want to know what he has to say)
Click to expand...
kBob,

Just so I can properly answer your question, a couple of clarifications:

Are you saying you sprayed the dog directly in the snout with a 100% OC product?
If so, which one?

OCT
 
Sol said:
Now for a real question:

How many times have you been sprayed?
Click to expand...
I've taken 6 live hits... And completely lost count how many times I've suffered through the effects of breathing in the residual sprays during testing.

Thanks for the question

OCT
 
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