Pepper Spray--The Truth

riceboy72 said:

Thank you for your quick and thorough reply!

Two more quick questions popped into my head: Old school practice with Cap Stun/Punch was to store it upside down in the OC carrier, presumably because it would store the actual OC near the tube and the first spray would contain OC and not only propellant. My assumption is that was simply a myth, and if there was any truth to it, it is null and void now due to current technology and the actuators that are used on most sprays today.

Also, training dictated we shake the crap out of our can to get the contents mixed before spraying someone. I take it that's unneccesary? Will a spray from a can that's been in a pocket and not shaken for months still deliver the same amount of OC than one that was shaken like a bottle of popped champagne?

Thanks again, OC-T.

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You're welcome, happy to help.

You are correct, definitely a myth. The reason the old school sprays were recommended to be carried upside down had to do with the seals. Since OC is oil-based, the oil would help keep the seals lubricated to prevent rotting. This was especially important with Cap-Stun since it is alcohol based. The alcohol wrecks the seal, so the theory was that the oil from the OC would help counter that. It did have some merit from what I recall. Today alcohol based sprays are few and far between. It would be like riding a horse to work. There is just better tech out today.

It's ok to shake modern day defense sprays, but it isn't nearly as necessary as it was back in the day. Once the companies switched to 134a as a propellant it all but eliminated the OC separation that was common with the sprays of old. The 134a acts as a solvent in addition to being the propellant. It is the same propellant used in asthma inhalers.

Please don't hesitate to reach out if you have any other questions.

OCT

OC-Trainer said:

Thank you, conw!

I am a fan of the Spitfire. I prefer the version prior to Sabre acquiring them, however. Same exact design as before, but Sabre actually weakened the formula. When is was still Spitfire out of TX, the formula was a level III (10% OC, 2 million SHU, 1.33% MC). Now it is basically half the strength at .70% MCs. The ASP defender line (discussed above) has all of the same attributes as the Spitfire e.g. cone pattern, can be sprayed from any direction etc, but is the formula that Spitfire used to have prior to Sabre screwing around with it. Sabre weakened the formula for one reason; so it can be sold in every state in US.

If you like the concept of the Spitfire, but want a more durable design, go with the ASP. If these will be mostly gifts for females and you need/want a more feminine design, there is a company called Pepperface* that "blings out" standard ASP defenders with pretty colors and such. Considerably more than the Spitfire, but it will last a lot longer.

*I have no affiliation with them whatsoever.

Thanks for the question and please let me know if you need further assistance.

OCT

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New year, new developments in the world of pepper spray. Just wanted to update something that I previously posted about Spitfire pepper spray available through Sabre. When they acquired the Spitfire brand, they weakened the formula and only filled it with the Sabre Red USA formulation. Word is that Sabre has now eliminated the Sabre Red USA formula (rated at around .67% MCs). It now appears that all new Spitfire will be formulated with the Sabre Red formula (10% OC/2 million SHU/ 1.33% MCs). This basically doubles the strength of the old formula. This is very good news and will make an already cool little pepper spray keychain that much better.

OCT

Johnny_B_Goode said:

I carry the Sabre 3 in 1 in the 1.8 oz can. Sabre claims the larger can sprays more per shot and has a larger cone. Does the larger can spay more in a larger cone? The larger can doesn't bother me because I never carry anything in my right pocket. I only carry Sabre when I am going places that it is not kosher to carry a gun. If my wife/friends want to eat in a restaurant with a gun buster sign I am not going to ruin the evening over politics.

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Thanks for the question, Johnny.

This is yet another tricky area in the marketing of pepper sprays. When a manufacturer claims more shots, we have to look closely at what they consider a shot to be. For example, on Sabre's smaller units, say the .5oz keychain, they claim 20 shots or so. What they consider a shot is a 1/2 second burst. A 1/2 second burst is unrealistic in my experience. When under duress, most folks are going to just hold down the actuator and keep it pressed. In our testing over the years, almost no one was able to consistently fire off 1/2 second shots. One second shots are definitely more realistic. In the case of the unit mentioned above, that give someone about 10 "effective shots."

The other factor that comes into play when determining how many shots or bursts are in any given unit has to do with the spray pattern. Cones typically have fewer shots per than stream units. That said, the bigger the can, the more shots per. Just be aware that most brands consider a shot a 1/2 burst. I find that very misleading for the consumer. It is just a way to pump up the shot per packaging claims.

Hope this helps answer your question. If you need anything else, please let me know.

Edit: Yes, the larger the can, the larger the diameter of the spray as well.
OCT

MAKster said:

I was looking at sprays at Gander Mountain. They had a half dozen models of Sabre. They were all 3-in-1 sprays, but there was no mention of pepper potency. Any idea how good these are?

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Thanks for the question, MAKster.

I am not a fan of the "blended" defense spray. Long story short, tear gas has been proven to be ineffective against someone under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol. Tear gas, as it is currently used in modern defense sprays, is added to cause a skin burning sensation. Someone high on meth will not fill pain, hence the tear gas will be useless. This added tear gas comes at the expense of more OC. OC will still work on someone under the influence, so I want more of the OC, not less. Most blended sprays have an major capsaicinoid % in .3 range. That is much too weak for my liking. I personally would not use an OC product that was anything less than a level III (1.33% MCs). There are a few exceptions to these weak blended formulas, but I don't believe they are available to civilians.

Please let me know if you need anything else.

OCT

glistam said:

I found one more item I own that wanted you're take on, OC-Trainer:
The Mace PepperGun

I have test-fired it and the stream it emits is quite powerful with a good range, but I was curious if the formulation is considered to be a good one since the canisters it fires are proprietary.

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Hello glistam.

The item you are referring to works as advertised. Based on my experience with MACE Brand, about the best thing that I can say about them is that they have some cool patents. Patents eventually expire, however. My major issue with them has to do with their formulas. On paper, their formulas sound good --almost all level III (1.33% MCs) ,but I've seen them routinely test way lower than advertised. I have a problem with that. For such a major player in the industry, this is unacceptable in my opinion. It is an easy fix with better QC and testing.

So yes to the patents, and no to the formulas unless/until something changes over there.
Reach out if you have any other questions...

OTC

Johnny_B_Goode said:

Eventually this thread will be archived. The search function of these forums doesn't always work so great. When I did a Bing search I found 100's of sales pitches but very little factual information, in fact no factual information. Do you have some links we can bookmark in the event we need to research a product in the future?

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Johnny, I could definitely provide some links, but most of what I'd be able to link will be third party stuff. For example, some third party test done on various sprays. What specifically are you look for? Maybe I can point you in the right direction.

As far as how to decode and cut through all of the marketing hype, keep these things in mind:

HPLC guarantees heat rating of pepper sprays. This is an objective, scientific test that completely eliminates all of the BS marketing.

Look for a product that displays all three of the major numbers. The OC%, SHU rating, and most importantly, the major capsaicinoid percentage (MC)
Great formula looks like this:10% OC/2 million SHU/1% MC or above

MSDS are available and understandable.

If you follow those hard and fast rules, you can cut through the marketing garbage and get down to brass tacks.

OCT

swixt said:

what about the Mace "gun" offered on Amazon? I've always thought that just a typial spray can sort of button was way too likely to be misdirected in a panic situation and the Mace claims to offer "test shots" filled with water.

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swixt, see post #135.

OCT

Johnny_B_Goode said:

Third party stuff is exactly what I would like to see. I was searching the Sabre site earlier. I spent about 45 minutes browsing their site and I didn't find any specific informatio about their products, just the usual sales pitches.

I think everyone that ever had a copy of front page express has a site concerning personal defense products. They all tout certain products but give no reason other than the copy and paste sales pitch that I just read.

It maybe best to just ask officer friendly what will give us the best bang for the buck when the time comes. Barring an attack where one of use uses the pepper spray we have I won't be buying any more pepper spray for 4 years.

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Ok, so here are some links. Honestly, some of these things should not be posted online, due to confidentiality issues. But they are, so I linked to them. A word on Chromtec: THE third-party labs to test pepper spray. They are second to none. I let the links speak for themselves. I also linked some MSDS to popular brands. Some of the info is outdated, but it gives you an idea what an OC MSDS looks like. If anyone has a questions regarding these, please let me know.

http://www.pepperspraysetc.com/pepper-spray-msds.html

http://www.brownells.com/userdocs/MSDS/100-012-274_FOX%20LABS%201.5OZ.%20MEAN%20GREEN%20PEPPER%20SPRAY%20-%20STREAM%20-%20G27_default.pdf

http://www.yoursafetystore.com

http://www.safetytechnology.com/wildfire-pepper-sprays.html

Edit: Take note of the Mean Green MSDS. Fox touts it as water-based, which it sorta kinda is. They never mention it has alcohol, however. That, to me, is misleading.

OCT

Sox said:

OCT, again man wow a million thanks! What a resource.

1. Can you give your thoughts on the old "Bodyguard" brand?

2. What ever happend to the Spitfire "Hex" product that they showed briefly, but never came to be. It was basically a hexagonal kubotan / spray combo. Seemed like a good idea.

3. Finally, your overall thoughts based on familiarty in the industry and actual use, where does pepper spray fall in line with respect to a use of force / level of force continum for the CIVILIAN. A recent course I attended was eye opening as there was case law on the books citing it could be construed as being a significant level of force. I was under the presumption prior to that it was below empty hand engagements.

Again, thank you.

Dave

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My pleasure, Dave. I appreciate the kind words!

Bodyguard was a brand out of Vegas I believe. They had either a lot of love or a lot of hate. Not sure why. I seem to remember there being some issues with how their stuff tested out on the OC essays. Their biggest claim to fame was that they were the first brand to use really high percentages. If memory serves, they were acquired around 10 years ago, or so. Defense Tech kept the name going for a little while, but eventually phased it out. Something of interest though; Some folks who bought Inferno brand noticed a funny thing when they removed the canister from the keychain hard case. Beneath the Inferno label was a Bodyguard label. Needless to say this led to a lot of confusion and questions. The company line was that they purchased the old components from Bodyguard and the canister were already labeled (but unfilled). Interesting...

You have a good memory Dave. Spitfire Hex was around for a split-second. Once Security Equipment Corporation (Sabre) acquired them, they discontinued the product. It already competed with something that they were offering. (they call it a "tactical" spray which is identical the ASP Defender series). Here is another little tidbit regarding Sabre. They created a little known product called "Blue Face" which was to counter a new, (now extinct) product called "Pink Stinker." They thought it might catch on, so they created something to compete with it. It didn't catch on...

Although pepper spray is legal in all 50 states, the laws (in some) are absolutely ridiculous in my opinion. Most notably in NY and the old law in MA. MA laws were so antiquated that it lumped pepper spray in to a statute as ammunition!!! That required folks to have a FOID card to purchase it--that was absurd. Fortunately that law was revised, and it is now much easier to get. That said, on the use of force continuum it is considered pretty low for a civilian in my experiences. It varies by state, but in a nutshell, if you perceive danger or that harm my be imminent then from there you can use pepper spray legally. Give a verbal command i.e. stop, leave me alone, etc. and you should be good to go. As long at is used for self-defense it is almost always a non-issue. Penalties are very stiff for those who use it offensively, however--and rightfully so.

Please let me know if you need anything else.

OCT

Sox said:

OCT,

I am confused, not stupid but confused.

Could you expound on the various criteria used to determine the strength of the products out there. Though explained in brief, I think it would assist many in making more accurate decisions.

For example:

SHU's, %, etc. and how do they all relate. For example, I am in medicine and know if I have whatever drug and it is say 5%, its strength is 50MG per ML. Though that just tells how much. I have to know the proper dosage and relative strength of the medicine I am using.

SO a 1.3 % MC is determined how or related to what to determine it's strength. Does the pepper preparation and quality or "heat" of the pepper have any true bearing? You also mentioned solvent earlier and that is a great point.

Thanks again!

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Sox, I understand completely. That is why I wanted to start this thread. There is a ton of confusion about what makes a good pepper spray. The manufacturers are mainly responsible for this confusion too.

Bottom line, the only number that matters today is the major capsaicinoid percentages. However, getting that number isn't always easy because of the games some brands play. Remember, they all want you to think that only they have the "secret sauce."
The reason I recommend going with a company that displays all three of the important numbers--OC, SHU, MCs-- is so you can tell if they're truthful with the advertising. Here is how it all breaks down.

The MCs are the active ingredient in the oleoresin capsicum (OC). The raw OC must test at a specific Scoville Heat Unit level for the OC to contain the proper amount of the MCs. So if a company claims 2% MCs for example, and they list something like 4%OC, 500,000SHU...that is simple not possible. You are basically looking for discrepancies in their math. As crazy as it sounds, this happens all of the time with the off brands.

The only number that truly matters is the MC% (which should be at least between 1-2%) and it tests that way on HPLC. You can completely disregard any company that claims OC percentages and SHU are superior to MCs. It has been scientifically proven that only the MCs matter in the end.

Sox, don't hesitate to reach back out if you have more questions.

OCT

Rule3 said:

I was just looking on a major online gun product supply company. None of the Saber products list a formula percentage.??

The Mace brand lists 10% OV plus dye.

Is this the Max that can be purchased.? I was looking for the ones that are not 3 way as you indicated the Year Gas was not important.

I want a small unit for walking the dog.

Thanks, I skimmed most of the thread, sorry if you covered this.

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Rule 3, unfortunately the only way you're going to be able to tell the strength of older Sabre stock is to look at the actual unit. They do put a label on each one that displays all 3 numbers. Starting this year (2015) all of the civilian formulas with all be the same strength so it will be much easier to tell when ordering online from here on out. I'm glad they finally did this. It makes it much easier when ordering and it is long overdue.

If you are looking for the strongest pepper spray currently on the market it is by a company called UDAP. Look for the "World's Hottest" designation as they make two different strengths. The WH line only comes in conical spray pattern. If you are looking for a stream Sabre, UDAP (non WH) will be the same strength.

Let me know if you need anything else.

OCT