1911 is outdated?

Yes it's an old design, just so happens a good one.

Look at the number of people out there building them for your answer.

You don't see everyone building a copy of a Jennings do you?

I just love the term "most people don't understand."

Are you talking about a Colt 45 made in 1911, or the 1911 design?

Obviously, the design. So, let's take another 100 year old design and ask the same question. The automobile.

Even today, most car's are, for all intents and purposes, driven by internal combustion engines and have steel shells.

Does the fact that there are cars with composite shells and electric engines make the 2015 BMW whatever, out of date?

One thing that always makes me laugh is the "centtury old design" therefore it's obsolete. and should be replaced

Well, using that logic - cased ammo is a century old design, and concrete is something like 8,000 years old. Therefore both of those are obsolete and should also be replaced.

A design may be old, but nonetheless valid for it, if it still works, and works well.

Each time a platform fan tries to bash another for whatever reason - I am reminded of a story of an interview of Mikhail Kalashnikov regarding the AK47. The interviewer was interrogating Mikhail asking him how he felt about developing a weapon that had been used in so many wars and been used so widely. Obviously trying to paint him as some sort of sociopathic monster. Mikhail's response was "I challenge you to build a better one" Whether that was actually said by him is unknown. But I agree with the sentiment.

The 1911 has not been the best choice for personal protection since the 1930's. It is still a good design that if put together right is an acceptable choice. It has morphed over the years to the point that it is a better target and range game gun than personal protection gun.

Basically, there's only two types of handguns, 1911s and everything else. They're people that can handle them, and people that can't. Those that can't, should get one of the else. Dissing 'em for mammon is okay work, if you can get it.............I guess.

101, 102, 103, 104, 105...............

Seriously? How many "1911 still viable combat handgun" threads do we need?

That being said Larry Vicker is a legit source, I know the article the OP is referencing, he makes very good points.

Pete D. said:

Not again. Alas.
An article by someone who does not know what he is talking about. Not really.
Outdated? What does that mean anyway?
Perhaps capacity? Only seven rounds? That would make the Glock 36 outdated also.
Materials? Steel is outdated? Steel is bad? Nuh-uh.
Trigger? 1911 triggers, even bad ones, are better than the best Glock triggers....at least in my experience.
Accuracy.....I haven't met a 1911 that was less accurate than a Glock.
(Not to pick on Glocks....I like and own and use Glocks. It is a handy example.)
And so on..
Pete

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Im sorry but Larry Vickers knows 100% what he is talking about when he is discussing the 1911.

Not only is he a retired Tier 1 operator, he teaches a 1911 gunsmithing and 1911 armorer class, in addition to his handgun and carbine classes. He is a personal friend of Bill Wilson of Wilson Combat, an engineering consultant for H&K, he consulted on the HK 45 compact. He is one the founding 5 of IDPA, not the mention that among the few in todays "trainers" he has actual combat trigger time on the 1911 and other pistols..the list goes on this guys resume, so yea he sure has no clue what he is talking about on the 1911..........

Not only is he a retired Tier 1 operator, he teaches a 1911 gunsmithing and 1911 armorer class, in addition to his handgun and carbine classes. He is a personal friend of Bill Wilson of Wilson Combat, an engineering consultant for H&K, he consulted on the HK 45 compact. He is one the founding 5 of IDPA, not the mention that among the few in todays "trainers" he has actual combat trigger time on the 1911 and other pistols..the list goes on this guys resume, so yea he sure has no clue what he is talking about on the 1911..........

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All that is true... However he changes his mind with his paycheck. i.e. hocking glocks now-a-days.

boricua9mm said:

What a lot of people don't know is that Larry is quite possibly one of the top 1911 pistolsmiths in the country and has forgotten more about the 1911 than most here will ever know.

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He just recently posted a video where he said the older guys in the SOCOM community still gravitate toward the 1911 and said that many people once they shoot a well tuned 1911 are not going to want to go to anything else.

One thing that always makes me laugh is the "centtury old design" therefore it's obsolete.

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The irony is that striker fired handguns are substantially older than the 1911.

Outdated? Maybe, after all it is over 100 years old design.

Obsolete? Hardly. Still quite capable of putting lots of .45 holes in what ever you choose to point it at... still gets the job done.

The design may be dated, but its not outdated.

Anyone can go drive a honda that rarely needs work...but id still rather drive an old classic that has to have the valve lash adjusted periodically.

He is a personal friend of Bill Wilson of Wilson Combat

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But that's a conflict of interests. Guys like Bill Wilson (or his friends) don't want you to know that you can get a 1911-pattern that works every time and will hold the black at 50 yards for $600 or less.

Honestly though, a lot of what people are saying is inconsistent. I mean, like how it's somehow foolish to spend $1,000 on a "good" 1911 (their words, not mine) but it makes so much sense to spend $1,000 on an HK. IF you're looking for high-performance, then yes, you probably need to drop a grand or more, regardless of the make and model. If you just need a duty pistol, then even a Rock Island will run side-by-side with a G21 in terms of reliability, though a Springfield Mil-Spec is probably a better option.

I have shot hundreds of thousands of rounds though 1911 pistols over the past 40 years. I have had 1911s that run absolutely flawlessly. Those that didn't usually needed just a simple fix. Some needed mulitiple simple fixes to run right. My current carry gun is a Colt Lwt. Commander in .38 Super Comp and it is one sweet shooting pistol that runs like the Energizer Bunny.

Having said all of that, I couldn't agree more with Vickers. For the average guy that wants to get a mass produced pistol that will run about any ammo, under any conditions, with little maintenance right out of the box, the 1911 is indeed a PITA.

I would rather

have ten guys shooting at me with a plastic Glock 9mm rather than one with a .45 Colt.

Ankeny said:

I have shot hundreds of thousands of rounds though 1911 pistols over the past 40 years. I have had 1911s that run absolutely flawlessly. Those that didn't usually needed just a simple fix. Some needed mulitiple simple fixes to run right. My current carry gun is a Colt Lwt. Commander in .38 Super Comp and it is one sweet shooting pistol that runs like the Energizer Bunny.

Having said all of that, I couldn't agree more with Vickers. For the average guy that wants to get a mass produced pistol that will run about any ammo, under any conditions, with little maintenance right out of the box, the 1911 is indeed a PITA.

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Agreed. Another quote attributed to Vickers was, "if you treat your pistol like you treat your lawnmower, buy a Glock." His point, as I understood it, was simply put, some folks just don't want to maintain their tools. Glocks can take a lot of shooting and abuse without cleaning or lube for longer intervals. If I'm not mistaken Larry Vickers still teaches classes around the country for people interested in the 1911. I don't think he has given up on the 1911 as a platform.

True, but tell me who isnt? SGM (ret.) SFOD-1 Kyle Lamb is telling us why M&P's are better than Glocks, because S&W builds his VTAC model. Chris Costa loves to tell us how great Salient International and Knighthawk. All the major trainers and gun gurus do it.

I still does not discount Vickers resume or quality of information that he provides on 1911's.

HDCamel said:

But that's a conflict of interests. Guys like Bill Wilson (or his friends) don't want you to know that you can get a 1911-pattern that works every time and will hold the black at 50 yards for $600 or less.

Honestly though, a lot of what people are saying is inconsistent. I mean, like how it's somehow foolish to spend $1,000 on a "good" 1911 (their words, not mine) but it makes so much sense to spend $1,000 on an HK. IF you're looking for high-performance, then yes, you probably need to drop a grand or more, regardless of the make and model. If you just need a duty pistol, then even a Rock Island will run side-by-side with a G21 in terms of reliability, though a Springfield Mil-Spec is probably a better option.

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It maybe a conflict of interest IF Vickers discounted Les Baer, and other high end 1911 makers. Which btw he doesn't.

Also I am going to have to disagree strongly with you on Rock Island's being as reliable as a G21's. I know the Rock guys get defensive, if you mention their guns. It will never be as reliable as Glock.

I love 1911's dont get me wrong, I own a few. They wont be my daily EDC. Discount Vickers opinions, but what about Hilton Yam at 10-8 Performance? What about Dave Spaulding? Go read their views, someone who has been a LEO and armorer for almost 20 plus years. They all will generally say the same things. Love the 1911, be prepared to do extra maintenance to keep the gun up and running, thats all.

Random thoughts on the topic....

Shooting handguns accurately is hard enough as it is.... shooting them with a crappy trigger is just plain terrible.

Which one would you fear being pistol whipped by the most.

Lot's of things seam hard or complicated when you're not willing to invest any time into understanding them. Discrediting things you don't really understand is a very common practice.

Powerful loads have a snappy sting in light weight handguns.

For better or worse, 1911's are probably the most Bubbah'd handguns in the world.

There are many different personal preferences and specific needs people might seek in a handgun. To each there own.

They all will generally say the same things. Love the 1911, be prepared to do extra maintenance to keep the gun up and running, thats all.

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I'm curious...because all that "they" say hasn't been my own experience...about all the extra maintenance they mean.

Cleaning?

Anyone who doesn't keep his defensive weapon clean deserves what he gets...the same as people who drive a car for 30,000 miles between oil changes.

Broken parts?

In 50 years...and probably over a million rounds fired through various 1911s...I could probably hold all the failed small parts I've seen in one hand.

Worn out small parts?

See above.

I read that Hilton yam recommended replacing the extractor every 5,000 rounds, or when it loses tension whichever comes first...but in a properly functioning pistol, there's no reason why a good quality extractor shouldn't last for the life of the gun and beyond. I pulled an extractor out of a Black Army Colt that had seen better days...and installed it in an old Springfield that I used for beater duty. It lasted in excess of 30,000 rounds before the claw failed.

And I don't remember when I had to adjust the tension on one of my extractors. It's probably been 20 years.

Hard to field strip?

In its original guise, the 1911 can be field stripped in 12-15 seconds and reassembled in 20 or so.

I don't get it.

I think some people assume that since Vickers sells Glock stuff, he's flip flopped to be a Glock fanboy. He really isn't, in fact he doesn't recommend the majority of Glocks made (granted this advice was pre-Gen 4 so some might have changed):

"1) IMO the Glock 19 and 17 are the best Glock's made - both are excellent pistols - I own, use, and recommend both

2) I do not recommend the G22, G23, or G21 - based on my experience these pistols have problems (breakage, won't function with rail mounted lights, etc.) and I feel there are better choices in 40 and 45

3) Glocks as a rule are not as accurate as many other service pistols - partly due to the enlarged chamber - this can be fixed with aftermarket barrels

4) I recommend 3 things for a Glock 19 or 17; good sights (Heinie, Novak, 10-8and Warren are my current favorites) , a buttplug to keep debris out of the trigger mech (cheap insurance), and my mag catch made by Tangodown. Optional but highly recommended is frame texturing by Dave Bowie (I like the finger grooves removed also)

5) They are incredibly forgiving in maintenance and lubrication - amazing

6) Incredibly simple to operate - 2 levers/buttons and 1 is optional

7) Always remember the golden rule with a Glock; keep your finger OFF the trigger until you are ready to shoot - if you don't adhere to this expect a loud noise at some point

Bottom line Glocks in 9mm are excellent pistols - they are not my first choice in other calibers however - the S&W M&P has been called a product improved Glock ; this may be true but the verdict is still out as the M&P is a relatively new handgun vs millions of Glock's in service (mostly in 9mm I might add) and S&W has a spotty record in terms of autoloading pistols - time will tell

hope this helps

Larry Vickers"

Forgot to add, I think Vickers also claims the G21 to be the worst Glock made, so I wouldn't necessarily assume he would recommend one over a 1911.

So.... Mr. Vickers is a talented, experienced, opinionated gunsmith with whom I am unfamiliar. That does not explain how he could make such a comment given the vast practical experience of generations of shooters.
My own guns were done by the late George Madore. My Bullseye gun has, conservatively, more that 60,000 rounds through it. I can count the failures on the fingers of my hands and have a few left over. Finicky? Nah.
Pete