Non-FFL shipping to FFL

Poper · Sep 16, 2015

I am shipping a long gun to a licensed FFL out of state via FedEx.
Is there anything I need to include in the package other than the rifle?
Is there anything special I need to do?

Thank you for your help.

gearhead · Sep 16, 2015

Ask the receiving FFL what sort of documentation they feel comfortable with.

Poper · Sep 16, 2015

Thank you.

Read dogtown tom's sticky and feel like a maroon for having posted first and searched second. I know better.
Duh.

swinokur · Sep 17, 2015

Put a copy of your DL in the box with the long gun for ID

jonnyc · Sep 17, 2015

You should have already received a copy of the FFL's license. Make a copy and stick that in too.

oneounceload · Sep 17, 2015

Don't forget to put the buyer's name and contact info in there so the FFL knows who it is for, as well as your contact info in case something goes south in transit.

Also, make sure this FFL will accept packages from a non-FFL. Some have a policy where they won't do that.

natman · Sep 17, 2015

Declare the package as a rifle.
Show the FFL copy to the UPS clerk if asked.
Include a copy of your ID so the receiving FFL can log where the rifle came from.
Include the name of the buyer in the address.

Speedo66 · Sep 17, 2015

oneounceload said:
Don't forget to put the buyer's name and contact info in there so the FFL knows who it is for, as well as your contact info in case something goes south in transit.

This, important. Last purchase the sending FFL didn't include my contact info, and the receiving FFL didn't know who it was for.

dogtown tom · Sep 17, 2015

gearhead Ask the receiving FFL what sort of documentation they feel comfortable with.

This.

jonnyc You should have already received a copy of the FFL's license. Make a copy and stick that in too.

Why?
I'm pretty sure the receiving dealer already has plenty of copies of his OWN FFL.

It always makes me cry when the shipper takes the time to include my FFL, but forgets his FFL or drivers license.:banghead:

natman Declare the package as a rifle. Required by FedEx
Show the FFL copy to the UPS clerk if asked. Not required by FedEx/UPS/USPS
Include a copy of your ID so the receiving FFL can log where the rifle came from. Most definitely.
Include the name of the buyer in the address. NEVER DO THIS! The "addressee" is the receiving dealer and the receiving dealer only. It is fine to hand write the transferees name elsewhere on the box, but do not make it part of the actual address label.

If the box is addressed:
Joe Public
Bob's Gun Shop
Anytown, USA

Guess who UPS/FedEx/USPS will let sign for it............that's right Joe Public, when it should only be signed for by Bob's Gun Shop.

Typically sellers will forward tracking information to the buyer. That information combined with the transferees name as the addressee increases the possibility the package being intercepted before it gets to the receiving dealer.

Week before last a nitwit gun dealer shipped to my premises and not my shipping address. I took the "sorry we missed you" notice to the post office the next day.........it took two supervisors before they would let me have the package. The nitwit dealer addressed it to:
John Customer
6908 My Street
Plano, TX

No mention of my name or my business name anywhere. :banghead:

mbogo · Sep 17, 2015

You are not legally required to include identification in the package. Some FFLs may require it as policy, but there is nmo regulation or law requiring it.

If you include a copy of your driver's license, obliterate your date of birth, and the driver identification number on the copy.

mbogo

243winxb · Sep 17, 2015

The FFL should not open the package till the buyer is present.

Frank Ettin · Sep 17, 2015

mbogo said:
You are not legally required to include identification in the package. Some FFLs may require it as policy, but there is nmo regulation or law requiring it....

Not exactly correct. The FFL receiving the gun is required to record, among other things (27 CFR 478.125(e)):

...the name and address or the name and license number of the person from whom received...

And it's not unreasonable for an FFL is expect that information he is required to record in his business records is accurate. In any case, it's certainly the FFL's prerogative to require as a matter of business policy a copy of the senders driver's license if the sender is not an FFL.

243winxb said:
The FFL should not open the package till the buyer is present.

Under federal law the receiving FFL has only a limited amount of time in which to record receipt of the gun, and he will probably have to open the package to get all the information he will need. So the FFL might not be able to do that unless the buyer comes in promptly. See 27 CFR 478.125(e), emphasis added:

(e) Firearms receipt and disposition by dealers.

...each licensed dealer shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms. ... The record required by this paragraph shall be maintained in bound form under the format prescribed below. The purchase or other acquisition of a firearm shall, except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, be recorded not later than the close of the next business day following the date of such purchase or acquisition. The record shall show the date of receipt, the name and address or the name and license number of the person from whom received, the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), the model, serial number, type, and the caliber or gauge of the firearm....

With regard to the exception noted, 27 CFR 478.125(g) applies when an FFL has a commercial record of the firearm received and that record includes all the information required to be maintained in the bound book.

A commercial record could be an invoice, a packing list, a bill of lading, or something similar, but to allow the delay of entry of acquisition, that record must include:

...the date of receipt, the name and address or the name and license number of the person from whom received, the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), the model, serial number, type, and the caliber or gauge of the firearm....

oneounceload · Sep 17, 2015

Include the name of the buyer in the address. NEVER DO THIS!

I have always sent my gun to the FFL as follows
Joe Blow (buyer)
c/o Abe Snake (FFL)
street address
city, state, zip

If Abe works at billy's pawn and Gun, or any other place with "gun" in the name, I omit that; (not that Fedex and UPS counter folks can't see the total name, but no one else in the chain knows until delivery)
Have never had a question or refusal yet

mbogo · Sep 17, 2015

Frank Ettin said:
Not exactly correct. The FFL receiving the gun is required to record, among other things (27 CFR 478.125(e)):

And it's not unreasonable for an FFL is expect that information he is required to record in his business records is accurate. In any case, it's certainly the FFL's prerogative to require as a matter of business policy a copy of the senders driver's license if the sender is not an FFL.

As I said, there is no Federal law or regulation requiring the seller to include a copy of his/her identification.

The 'name and license number' in the section you quoted are for when a Federal Firearms licensee is the transferor. When a non-licensee is the transferor, only name and address are required for record-keeping.

Name and address can be gleaned from the mailing label on the package (and could be corroborated by the buyer).

mbogo

dogtown tom · Sep 17, 2015

243winxb The FFL should not open the package till the buyer is present.

Half the packages I get don't have any information on the outside indicating who the buyer/transferee is.

oneounceload

Quote:
Include the name of the buyer in the address. NEVER DO THIS!

Click to expand...

I have always sent my gun to the FFL as follows
Joe Blow (buyer)
c/o Abe Snake (FFL)
street address
city, state, zip

If Abe works at billy's pawn and Gun, or any other place with "gun" in the name, I omit that; (not that Fedex and UPS counter folks can't see the total name, but no one else in the chain knows until delivery)
Have never had a question or refusal yet

That's because you aren't the addressee are you?

mbogo ....Name and address can be gleaned from the mailing label on the package (and could be corroborated by the buyer).

Name and address like "The UPS Store #2516 Somewhere, USA"? :scrutiny:

Ship a gun to me (and most other dealers) like that and expect it to be returned at your cost. No seller ID? No transfer.

mbogo · Sep 17, 2015

dogtown tom said:
Half the packages I get don't have any information on the outside indicating who the buyer/transferee is.

That's because you aren't the addressee are you?

Name and address like "The UPS Store #2516 Somewhere, USA"?
Ship a gun to me (and most other dealers) like that and expect it to be returned at your cost. No seller ID? No transfer.

No, the seller's actual address.

We both know that you cannot ship a firearm through a UPS store. You must go to a customer counter at a UPS-staffed location.

mbogo

Frank Ettin · Sep 17, 2015

mbogo said:
...Name and address can be gleaned from the mailing label on the package (and could be corroborated by the buyer)....

Perhaps that the way you're willing to run your business. It's hardly the gold standard; and many are much more diligent, requiring some verification of the seller's identity.

mbogo · Sep 17, 2015

The OP asked about what he 'needed to do'.

He didn't ask how far he might have to go to satisfy some FFL's business practices, preferences, and policies.

In my world, I do only what the law requires, and no more.

mbogo

dogtown tom · Sep 17, 2015

mbogo Quote:

Originally Posted by dogtown tom
Name and address like "The UPS Store #2516 Somewhere, USA"?
Ship a gun to me (and most other dealers) like that and expect it to be returned at your cost. No seller ID? No transfer.

Click to expand...

No, the seller's actual address.

We both know that you cannot ship a firearm through a UPS store. You must go to a customer counter at a UPS-staffed location.

You obviously have zero real world experience in receiving firearms. Not a week goes by that I don't receive a handgun shipped FedEx or UPS Ground, a gun shipped through a UPS Store or other third party retailer, or a nonlicensee mailing a handgun to me in a USPS flat rate box.

Just because "We both know" doesn't mean everyone else does.

dogtown tom · Sep 17, 2015

You are the reason fewer and fewer dealers will receive from a nonlicensee

mbogo The OP asked about what he 'needed to do'.

He didn't ask how far he might have to go to satisfy some FFL's business practices, preferences, and policies.

In my world, I do only what the law requires, and no more.

Funny, in MY WORLD........your box would be returned if you didn't honor my shipping instructions. (and I'm not the only dealer who requires a DL copy from nonlicensees)

mbogo · Sep 17, 2015

The situations you describe are the result of someone not following the law (in the case of the handguns via USPS) or the policies of the common carrier (the sender may have also violated BATFE regulations by not declaring the packages as containing firearms).

None of this is germane to the OP, as he is interested in following the law.

mbogo

mbogo · Sep 17, 2015

dogtown tom said:
Funny, in MY WORLD........your box would be returned if you didn't honor my shipping instructions. (and I'm not the only dealer who requires a DL copy from nonlicensees)

As a seller, I would inform the buyer that he'd need to find another FFL to handle the transfer. Not all FFLs want to make non-licensees jump through hoops.

mbogo

oneounceload · Sep 17, 2015

That's because you aren't the addressee are you?

\
Not sure what you are saying......I have done what I mentioned over a dozen times with success and no issues; so what is your concern/gripe/complaint?

il.bill · Sep 17, 2015

mbogo said:
As a seller, I would inform the buyer that he'd need to find another FFL to handle the transfer. Not all FFLs want to make non-licensees jump through hoops.

mbogo

I am not interested in making ANYONE jump through a hoop, but the federal government / BATFE requires that I enter into my A&D Book the name and license number or name and address of everyone from whom I acquire a firearm in the course of business.

If mbogus, the actual seller / shipper, sends me a firearm to transfer to a buyer and lists his name as 'mbogo', using the address of said mbogo, how can I verify the shipper / seller information he supplied? For all I know, mbogus stole the firearm from mbogo and is selling it for his own ill-gotten gain.

For ME, in MY business, I have decided that any fireram sent to me by a non-verified licensee must be accompanied by a copy of the seller's State ID including signature, along with a signed Bill of Sale from the seller. If the information and the two signatures on the State Issued ID and the Bill of Sale do not match, I will not process the transfer. That is my business practice, not a federal regulation, and any seller who chooses not to comply with that will just have to arrange with the buyer to "find another FFL to handle the transfer". I do not see that requirement as onerous for anyone involved, and it goes at least a small way towards insuring the integrity of the transaction for both the buyer and the seller. I would advise any of my customers to steer clear of a non-licensed seller who was reluctant to provide that information on an interstate firearm sale, whether said seller was mbogo or mbogus.

mbogo · Sep 17, 2015

il.bill said:
I am not interested in making ANYONE jump through a hoop, but the federal government / BATFE requires that I enter into my A&D Book the name and license number or name and address of everyone from whom I acquire a firearm in the course of business.

If mbogus, the actual seller / shipper, sends me a firearm to transfer to a buyer and lists his name as 'mbogo', using the address of said mbogo, how can I verify the shipper / seller information he supplied? For all I know, mbogus stole the firearm from mbogo and is selling it for his own ill-gotten gain.

For ME, in MY business, I have decided that any fireram sent to me by a non-verified licensee must be accompanied by a copy of the seller's State ID including signature, along with a signed Bill of Sale from the seller. If the information and the two signatures on the State Issued ID and the Bill of Sale do not match, I will not process the transfer. That is my business practice, not a federal regulation, and any seller who chooses not to comply with that will just have to arrange with the buyer to "find another FFL to handle the transfer". I do not see that requirement as onerous for anyone involved, and it goes at least a small way towards insuring the integrity of the transaction for both the buyer and the seller. I would advise any of my customers to steer clear of a non-licensed seller who was reluctant to provide that information on an interstate firearm sale, whether said seller was mbogo or mbogus.

Again, the OP was not inquiring about any policies than an FFL might have , only what he 'needed to do'.

Piling on additional requirements is what you prefer to do; by your own admission it is not required by law, and that was my point.

As an aside. it is not up to you to decide what is an imposition upon me; the seller does not choose to do business with you, the buyer does.

mbogo

Non-FFL shipping to FFL

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