Non-FFL shipping to FFL

dogtown tom · Sep 17, 2015

mbogo

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom View Post
Funny, in MY WORLD........your box would be returned if you didn't honor my shipping instructions. (and I'm not the only dealer who requires a DL copy from nonlicensees)

Click to expand...

As a seller, I would inform the buyer that he'd need to find another FFL to handle the transfer. Not all FFLs want to make non-licensees jump through hoops.

As a seller you shouldn't ship at all unless it's to the receiving dealers instructions. To do otherwise is just stupid.

My customers know my shipping requirements. So when you inform the buyer of all those hoops I'm making you jump through (which is a grand total of one....a copy of your drivers license) then I'm sure they will know who to blame and leave negative feedback for.

As for what you think "all FFLs want".........please list all those FFL's who happily receive firearm shipments from anonymous people. I''ll wait.

Frank Ettin · Sep 17, 2015

mbogo said:
The OP asked about what he 'needed to do'.

He didn't ask how far he might have to go to satisfy some FFL's business practices, preferences, and policies....

Balderdash. Need is not determined solely by the requirements of the law. If the transfer FFL requires that the seller ship the gun in a certain manner, including specified documentation, the seller needs to comply, or the transfer FFL can refuse to handle the transfer.

The word "need" as a transitive verb, as in:

Poper said:
Is there anything I need to include in the package other than the rifle?
Is there anything special I need to do?

means:

: to be in need of : require

That would include anything the transfer FFL requires as a matter of business policy.

mbogo said:
Again, the OP was not inquiring about any policies than an FFL might have , only what he 'needed to do'...

And as demonstrated above, you don't know what the words "needed to do" actually mean in English.

mbogo · Sep 17, 2015

dogtown tom said:
As a seller you shouldn't ship at all unless it's to the receiving dealers instructions. To do otherwise is just stupid.

My customers know my shipping requirements. So when you inform the buyer of all those hoops I'm making you jump through (which is a grand total of one....a copy of your drivers license) then I'm sure they will know who to blame and leave negative feedback for.

As for what you think "all FFLs want".........please list all those FFL's who happily receive firearm shipments from anonymous people. I''ll wait.

I wouldn't know of any FFLs who receive packages from anonymous people as I have never sent one anonymously. Besides, this is just another 'Trojan horse' argument on your part.

The dealers I work with here in the free state of Nevada do not run background checks on the seller/shipper, only the transferee (if they do not have a concealed carry permit issued after 2011).

mbogo

mbogo · Sep 17, 2015

Frank Ettin said:
Balderdash. Need is not determined solely by the requirements of the law. If the transfer FFL requires that the seller ship the gun in a certain manner, including specified documentation, the seller needs to comply, or the transfer FFL can refuse to handle the transfer.

The word "need" as a transitive verb, as in:

means:

That would include anything the transfer FFL requires as a matter of business policy.

And as demonstrated above, you don't know what the words "needed to do" actually mean in English.

That's all hogwash. All those hoops are not required by law; the use of an FFL who does not have those requirements but follows all BATFE regulations would still constitute a legal transfer.

By your convoluted interpretation, an FFL could require a notarized affidavit stating that the seller believes in unicorns and alien abductions and that would constitute a valid requirement.

If the buyer does not meet the seller's terms, the seller has a right not to consummate the transaction.

By the way, I understand English perfectly. Your condescending remark is neither warranted nor appreciated.

Apparently, you feel that your position as moderator permits you to contravene Rule 4.

4. Spamming, trolling, flaming, and personal attacks are prohibited. You can disagree with other members, even vehemently, but it must be done in a well-mannered form. Attack the argument, not the arguer.

mbogo

Frank Ettin · Sep 17, 2015

mbogo said:
That's all hogwash. All those hoops are not required by law;...

And that's nonsense.

The scope of the OP's question, in plain English, is not limited to what the law requires. Your preposterous insistence on reading a meaning not there on its face into the OP's question is dragging this thread off course.

This started out as a practical discussion about how the OP could satisfactorily complete a particular transaction. Your efforts to impose your value judgment on how business should be done isn't helping.

If you can't be constructive, don't bother posting.

mbogo · Sep 17, 2015

In my opinion, the OP was asking what he was legally required to do, since legal sanctions were possible if he failed to do so.

Subjecting himself to the whims and fancies of an FFL never entered into my mind.

Since I would never do so myself and would prefer to cancel the transaction, I bid this thread adieu.

mbogo

natman · Sep 18, 2015

dogtown tom said:
natman said:

Declare the package as a rifle. Required by FedEx

Click to expand...

UPS requires it too, at the very least if you don't accurately declare the package you'll have trouble if you need to collect insurance.

natman said:
Show the FFL copy to the UPS clerk if asked. Not required by FedEx/UPS/USPS

Perhaps not at your hub, but mine always asks. You should have the FFL with you in case yours does.

natman said:
Include the name of the buyer in the address. NEVER DO THIS! The "addressee" is the receiving dealer and the receiving dealer only. It is fine to hand write the transferees name elsewhere on the box, but do not make it part of the actual address label.

If the box is addressed:
Joe Public
Bob's Gun Shop
Anytown, USA

Guess who UPS/FedEx/USPS will let sign for it............that's right Joe Public, when it should only be signed for by Bob's Gun Shop.

I see your point in theory, but I don't ship until I've checked that the address is indeed a valid FFL. The odds of Joe Public hanging out at Bob's Gun Shop, being there when UPS arrives, receiving and signing for his package and then running out of the store with it seem remote.

Besides, if he could do all that, he could sign for the package whether his name was on it or not. It's not like UPS checks for employee ID.

IMO, it's more important to clearly communicate the who the buyer is.

dogtown tom · Sep 18, 2015

natman Show the FFL copy to the UPS clerk if asked. Not required by FedEx/UPS/USPS

Perhaps not at your hub, but mine always asks. You should have the FFL with you in case yours does.

Showing the FFL is not required by any USPS regulation, nor by any FedEx or UPS policy. Any UPS/FedEx clerk who says "I want to see the FFL" should be told to abide by their own company rules.

The odds of Joe Public hanging out at Bob's Gun Shop, being there when UPS arrives, receiving and signing for his package and then running out of the store with it seem remote.

True, but that isn't the problem.
When Joe Public is listed as the addressee and has tracking info it's relatively easy to call FedEx/UPS and ask for a hold. Then Joe Public can go to the local UPS/FedEx facility, show his ID and walk out with a firearm.

Besides, if he could do all that, he could sign for the package whether his name was on it or not. It's not like UPS checks for employee ID.

They will ask for ID when you pick up at a hub/customer service center.

Frank Ettin · Sep 18, 2015

dogtown tom said:
Showing the FFL is not required by any USPS regulation, nor by any FedEx or UPS policy....

However, under UPS/FedEx policy the addressee must be an FFL if the shipper is a non-licensee. So UPS/FedEx could reasonably ask for some confirmation of the shipper's or addressee's status.

When I've sent guns off to gunsmith, most of the time the counter clerk has taken my word for it. A few time showing the clerk the gunsmith's website on my iPhone has been sufficient.

I have no experience with USPS.

dogtown tom · Sep 18, 2015

Frank Ettin

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
Showing the FFL is not required by any USPS regulation, nor by any FedEx or UPS policy....

Click to expand...

However, under UPS/FedEx policy the addressee must be an FFL if the shipper is a non-licensee. So UPS/FedEx could reasonably ask for some confirmation of the shipper's or addressee's status.

The UPS clerk could also ask for a stool sample.....would you give it to them?
Reasonable or not, no UPS or FedEx policy requires showing them the FFL copy.

oneounceload · Sep 18, 2015

When I used Fedex, they would plug in the address of the buyer's FFL and the name of the gun shop came up on her computer.

Frank Ettin · Sep 18, 2015

dogtown tom said:
...Reasonable or not, no UPS or FedEx policy requires showing them the FFL copy...

So what? The fact remains that they have every right to confirm that the addressee is a licensee.

natman · Sep 18, 2015

dogtown tom said:
Showing the FFL is not required by any USPS regulation, nor by any FedEx or UPS policy. Any UPS/FedEx clerk who says "I want to see the FFL" should be told to abide by their own company rules.

Perhaps, but it's not hard to do. Getting in an argument over company rules seems like a waste of time, even if you're right. Just show the FFL and be on your way.

dogtown tom said:
True, but that isn't the problem.
When Joe Public is listed as the addressee and has tracking info it's relatively easy to call FedEx/UPS and ask for a hold. Then Joe Public can go to the local UPS/FedEx facility, show his ID and walk out with a firearm.

Ah, so it's not the signing, but the ability to control where the package goes that's the issue. Good point.

Snyper · Sep 19, 2015

So what? The fact remains that they have every right to confirm that the addressee is a licensee.

They can "confirm" anything they like. That's not the customer's job.

A customer isn't required to have a copy of an FFL to ship a gun.

All the customer "needs" is business name and an address

When I've sent guns off to gunsmith, most of the time the counter clerk has taken my word for it. A few time showing the clerk the gunsmith's website on my iPhone has been sufficient.

Why didn't you show them a copy of the FFL?

Frank Ettin · Sep 19, 2015

Snyper said:
...A customer isn't required to have a copy of an FFL to ship a gun.

All the customer "needs" is business name and an address....

Unless the UPS/FedEx representative has doubts that the shipment is in accordance with policy. In that case, unless he can be convinced that the addressee is indeed an FFL, the package will not be accepted.

What the customer needs to do is be able to assure the carrier to the carrier's satisfaction that the shipper is in compliance with the carrier's tariffs.

Snyper said:
...

When I've sent guns off to gunsmith, most of the time the counter clerk has taken my word for it. A few time showing the clerk the gunsmith's website on my iPhone has been sufficient.

Click to expand...

...Why didn't you show them a copy of the FFL?

Aren't you silly.

In my case, FedEx was satisfied by my display of the addressee's website that the addressee was an FFL. If FedEx had not been satisfied, I would have needed to try a different way.

dogtown tom · Sep 19, 2015

Frank Ettin

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
...Reasonable or not, no UPS or FedEx policy requires showing them the FFL copy...

Click to expand...

So what? The fact remains that they have every right to confirm that the addressee is a licensee.

Sorry bub.......an FFL copy doesn't confirm a darn thing.

A paper copy of the receiving dealers FFL is not required when shipping a firearm interstate nonlicensee to licensee.....only that the recipient is a licensed dealer.

ATF recommends that dealers not give FFL copies to nonlicensees, but merely the first three and last five digits of our license number.......which can be used to verify the validity of the FFL through ATF EZ check.

Frank Ettin · Sep 19, 2015

dogtown tom said:
Sorry bub.......an FFL copy doesn't confirm a darn thing.

Phooey! Whether you think it does or not is irrelevant. The issue is what might be necessary to convince UPS/FedEx that the addressee is an FFL.

There might be a variety of ways to do that. As I mentioned, displaying the addressee's website has worked for me when the question has come up. But the real point is that the customer might need to convince UPS/FedEx that the shipment complies with UPS/FedEx tariffs.

If that needs to be done, it needs to be done. And whatever will work, will work.

dogtown tom said:
...A paper copy of the receiving dealers FFL is not required when shipping a firearm interstate nonlicensee to licensee.....only that the recipient is a licensed dealer....

You really don't pay attention, do you? I never said it was required.

What is required is that the addressee is an FFL. And since that's required, the shipper might need to convince UPS/FedEx of that. So again, if that needs to be done, it needs to be done. And whatever will work, will work.

dogtown tom said:
...ATF recommends that dealers not give FFL copies to nonlicensees, but merely the first three and last five digits of our license number.......which can be used to verify the validity of the FFL through ATF EZ check.

That's fine, but FFLs don't always follow ATF recommendations. I've been given copies of the dealer's FFL, for other purposes. One gunsmith I've used posts on his website his full license number in case a customer needs it to convince UPS/FedEx to accept a shipment.

mgkdrgn · Sep 19, 2015

jonnyc said:
You should have already received a copy of the FFL's license. Make a copy and stick that in too.

Nooooo, as a non-FFL there is no need for HIM to receive a copy of the FFL's license, and the ATF actively discourages that. He can use EX check on line to see if the FFL is valid or not.

mgkdrgn · Sep 19, 2015

243winxb said:
The FFL should not open the package till the buyer is present.

Often times not possible:
1) I have to get the gun in my books by end of next business day. Even IF there is paperwork on the outside of the box, I have to make sure that is what is -inside- the box.
2) If the transferee information is not on the outside of the box, I have to open it to get it so I can notify them it's here.

Frank Ettin · Sep 19, 2015

mgkdrgn said:
jonnyc said:

You should have already received a copy of the FFL's license. Make a copy and stick that in too.

Click to expand...

Nooooo, as a non-FFL there is no need for HIM to receive a copy of the FFL's license, and the ATF actively discourages that. He can use EX check on line to see if the FFL is valid or not.

Now that is accurate.

jonnyc · Sep 19, 2015

I have always worked under the belief that the shipped firearm had to be packed with a copy of the recipient's FFL.

natman · Sep 20, 2015

jonnyc said:
I have always worked under the belief that the shipped firearm had to be packed with a copy of the recipient's FFL.

I'll take a turn. There's no point in shipping the receiving FFL a copy of his own license.

I realize that pointlessness is not unknown in gun law, but in this case it's not required.

Poper · Sep 20, 2015

I appreciate all the replies.

They were very helpful.

For anyone interested, I shipped the rifle FedEx with a copy of the receiving FFL's license because they had written the buyer's name on their license copy that they sent to me. I also enclosed a copy of my driver's license with a brief note that the rifle was purchased by the buyer at auction, from me, a private party.

I informed FedEx (verbally) that the shipment was indeed a firearm and presented a copy of the receiving FFL's license. They acknowledged (verbally) the firearm was indeed shipping to an FFL. They did not ask for a copy. They would only ship via 3-day FedEx ground.

Thank you again for all your replies.

Frank Ettin · Sep 20, 2015

Congratulations on a successful transaction. Glad everything went smoothly.

I'll close this thread now since the OP seems to have gotten things taken care of to his satisfaction.

If anyone feels that important information has been left out, please PM me; and I'll consider re-opening the thread.

Non-FFL shipping to FFL

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