.223/5.56: bolts v AR -- ballistics and rifle choice decision

Thanks, guys. Continued interest.

Highlander, the Ruger semi of interest is indeed the AR, not the SR.

I reread Jeff White's post above, and several others, like RCModel.

I think you're right: I went off track. The vid was not representative.

Not sure which way I'm leaning right now except .223. Which way is the wind blowing?

Fortunately, I've got lots of time, since the $ won't be available for months.

Suedoctor said:

You might want to check out this article in Outdoor Life that compared .223 to 30-30 for whitetails. Here's the link http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/hun...030-whitetails

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That's an interesting read. I'll save my interpretation for another time.

Ok, here's my addendum to my post above about .30-30 v .223.

If a shot to a medium- to large deer is 75 yds or more, I'll take a .30.

If the shot is less than 50, especially in the 20 - 30 yd range
(I've experienced that range repeatedly in life),
then I'll take a .223 over an arrow any time.

It's not only about shot placement. It's also about range.

I'm a biologist. I've studied how to get close, walking softly, quietly, eyes up. Sign.

All in the call of backpacking, hiking, studies.

I've never killed a deer ... yet.
Not that I didn't try -- several times -- but then got busy.
Gonna try again next year in two states.

I think my .30 will get the call some,
but predict that a .223 will work well for archery-like techniques.

Reading this thread again on a Saturday evening, from top down.
Just putting these here for further study, like Cliff Notes.
Remember Cliff Notes, and how handy they were for pop quiz prep?

GtScotty

I really don't enjoy shooting my AR's as much as my bolt guns, but in your case I would urge you towards an AR. With your streamlined arsenal, an AR is going to check more boxes than a .223 bolt gun, from home defense, to plinking, to informal target shooting, to light hunting, to hedging against future restrictions, the AR is a quintessential generalist.

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WWalker:

My vote: AR-556, a compact low-power scope or red dot, half a dozen magazines and a case of ammo to learn to use it.

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RCModel

You can shoot an AR until you run out of ammo, or until your eyeballs fall out.

Then totally strip it and clean it next year at home, after you grow new eyeballs.
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But, if 50 gazillion GI's can learn how to clean an Army rifle like an AR-16/M16 in the dark?

You probably can too.

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MistWolf

I've been moving around quite a bit myself and have even lived in a motorhome. I don't find an AR any harder to clean than a bolt action. For the most part, cleaning the AR consists of pushing two pins, removing the BCG, wiping things down with a rag & solvent, occasionally running a boresnake through the barrel and keeping it oiled.

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ReloadRon

The rifle was designed for a basic private infantryman in the field, frequently with an IQ 3 points higher than a plant to clean in the field with minimal equipment. How difficult can it be? On a scale of difficulty of one to ten with ten being most difficult it's about a minus three. The rifle was designed around simplicity of maintenance.

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JeffWhite

What little pins? There is only ONE pin that is necessary to remove to clean an AR. The firing pin retaining pin. It's not that small. 20 years in the Infantry with the M16 platform and I can't recall soldiers losing a firing pin retaining pin in the field.

You don't need to remove the pin that holds the extractor in to clean it every time. I used to carry an old OD green triangular bandage I talked a medic out of and I laid it on the ground to clean my rifle. All the pieces you need to remove fit on it nicely.

There is no need to break the weapon down into more then 7 pieces to clean it. Simply shotgun the weapon (no need to even separate the upper and lower receiver) remove the charging handle, bolt carrier, firing pin retaining pin, firing pin, cam pin and bolt. You can also remove the extractor and the pin holding it on, but TM9-1005-319-10 states that this is only necessary if it's dirty or not functioning. The extractor pin would be the smallest part you have to remove for routine maintenance.

You can also remove and clean the buffer and spring, but like the extractor, it's not necessary every time.

If you get into pulling the trigger group you will eventually ruin your lower receiver because if you repeatedly push the hardened steel pins in and out of the aluminum lower you will eventually make the holes in the receiver bigger and the pins will walk out.

As for cleaning it, I clean mine once a year. My 6920 gets between 3-5K rounds a year through it.

I'm not trying to tell you you've made the wrong decision, just pointing out that by the time you disassemble a bolt in most bolt guns you will have just about the same number of small parts as you would if you disassemble an AR for routine maintenance.

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BigD

I think you're exaggerating what's involved in cleaning an AR. Normal field take down involves moving 2 captive pins almost the size of your pinky finger and pulling out the bolt/carrier. The army procedure takes apart the bolt/carrier assembly but I've found that not's needed on anything like a regular basis as long as you use lube that gets in there.

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Malamute

Its rare that anything beyond taking the bolt/carrier out is required to do basic cleaning. Taking the bolt out of the carrier isnt a big deal if you want to, but can just be lubed and left alone. A wipedown, a minute with a toothbrush on the bolt, lube, patch through the barrel if you want, and put it back together.

Interesting reading about cleaning AR type rifles.

https://www.slip2000.com/blog/s-w-a-...ine-filthy-14/

I like fine bolt guns, and would truly like a quality bolt 223, but if making comparisons, do it with good info, not misleading nonsense from youtube.

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Ive never even done that (hose down with brake clean). If a toothbrush and rag didnt get out any crud, it stayed. Never had any functional issues from how clean the gun was, though I kept mine relatively clean. Just never had to do much to clean them well. Like Pat Rodgers said, 10-15 minutes is all it takes.

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Lysand

In the military, disassembly of the trigger group is not authorized. And even in the civilian world not suggested. Just hose the area down with brake cleaner, then hose it down with WD-40 to rinse it out, then a drop or two of oil on the pins to re-lube, and you're done

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Jenrick

One of the major things with 5.56/.223 is that the AR is THE platform for that round currently. If you really want to see what that round is capable of doing the AR has some variant to allow you to check it out. Short barreled upper for CQB work? Check. 24" varmint/match upper? Check. Hell, bolt action upper? Check (they do make them).

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Highlander

One of the major things with 5.56/.223 is that the AR is THE platform for that round currently. If you really want to see what that round is capable of doing the AR has some variant to allow you to check it out. Short barreled upper for CQB work? Check. 24" varmint/match upper? Check. Hell, bolt action upper? Check (they do make them).

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My desktop image.

Now, in 1968, that meant a picture.

Now, it means something entirely different.

conrad427 said:

I would think that lack of food, water, and shelter
would kill you faster than the wrong gas system.

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I think that's right.

MistWolf

Get The Art of the Start 2.0 by Guy Kawasaki

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I'd rather just hire the author.

I've got my hands full with my own stuff,
and want to shoot more, and walk in the pine woods ..

What ever platform I get,
this scope will go on top.

MWolf said:

He is available as a consultant

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As am I.

This could work out.

Have his people contact my people.

Sometimes the Interweb works, sometimes it don't.

This is what it looks like .

Good points being made about transportability and states where they can be kept. (I need to look into those restrictions -- which east coast states allow them, which don't. I can pretty much guess a few. But my main two states -- Florida and Maine -- are good. As for transport, shipping between those two is an option.

ETA: I just did a quick search trying to find out more about state laws re AR, but found nothing easily. Does anyone have a link to a site for an overview?

Another good point that's got me thinking is about parts and proprietary builds. The Ruger is appealing since it's a good gun for a good price. But the parts issue -- including (especially) in the future if (when) civ tanks -- is more of a concern.

So, question: suppose I wanted to build an AR, like most of you do. Could I get into a basic, no frills rifle with quality parts -- at least as good as the AR556 -- for about the same $, mas or menos?

I suspect some of you could help me with that. And I have two friends whom I'm in contact with a lot on other channels that could help me out.

To be clear, I'm still very much sitting on the fence about bolt v AR. Both appeal for different reasons, most of which we're addressing here. Thanks again for all your perspectives. It's very useful, interesting and even fun.
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MWolf, I'll see if I can contact your author consultant. Once I get the upcoming move finished. At this point, I'd rather hire someone to do marketing etc than try to learn how to do it myself. I just want to focus on the content -- teach seminars, training, making videos, etc, rather than try to do all the marketing myself. I've got a great product/service well developed. All I need is someone with those skills who can see its value and be willing to jump on it to help me develop that marketing/advertising aspect. We thought we'd found the perfect group in Maine last spring, but ... some philosophical/political issues got in the way. I suspect someone smaller scale, less famous is what we need to start. Next step for me is short Youtube videos that give viewers a glance, then link to the main video site where we'll be selling courses.

Here's a follow up a couple of hours later on this.

me said:

Could I get into a basic, no frills rifle with quality parts -- at least as good as the AR556 -- for about the same $, mas or menos?

I suspect some of you could help me with that. And I have two friends whom I'm in contact with a lot on other channels that could help me out.

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So while doing a bit of 'work' in the office on a Sunday afternoon, (actually more research on shipping container homes that I want to build in Florida), I couldn't help but do a search on building AR's. No surprise, I found a bunch of sites. The top three were interesting (scanned only).

It occurs to me that I may not want to actually build one in that way, from ground up. Seems like a lot of time -- but I'm willing to be wrong about that -- but if it is, I might like to consider two other options: 1) buying an AR factory built (other than Ruger); I'm not priced them in a long time (years) so don't know what to expect.

2) is an intermediate option between whole factory build and building up: that is, I was under the (perhaps mistaken) impression that one could buy mostly complete uppers and lowers, and perhaps add just a few last parts to complete the rifle. Did I just dream that?

However,

Just putting this how-to disassemble an AR-556 story here, with link to Ruger's manual (which the story complements for completeness).

Ruger® AR-556™ Review -- Part 4 - Disassembly and Internal Features.

Even given concerns about proprietary build (like all my other guns), it still seems like an excellent value to me.

me said:

2) is an intermediate option between whole factory build and building up: that is, I was under the (perhaps mistaken) impression that one could buy mostly complete uppers and lowers, and perhaps add just a few last parts to complete the rifle. Did I just dream that?

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Just found this useful thread stickied. Dr. Rob's post #4 helps answer my question.

^ I get it, Goon. Excellent advice. Thanks.