New Univ. MO - St. Louis police study

JTHunter · Nov 23, 2015

There was an interesting study in Sunday's St. Louis Post-Dispatch that may lead to additional police training, esp. in "marksmanship".
It also seems to indicate that police shootings are related MORE to the violence in the neighborhoods they patrol rather than the racial make-up of those areas.
One of the three researchers is Dan Isom, the former chief of the SLPD.

Analysis of St. Louis police shootings intended as national model

What it tells law enforcement leaders could lead to more effective changes in policies or training. For example, that St. Louis officers missed the people they were shooting at in half the encounters.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_ea0e3c20-45d6-53ca-8114-1166852c701d.html

Landric · Nov 24, 2015

This really shouldn't be a surprise, cops by and large in my professional experience are not shooters. You cannot expect someone who shoots a qualification course once or twice a year, usually static, to be successful in an armed encounter, often in low light. The problem is that the level of training that street cops need to be really reliable in shootings is probably not realistic for the law enforcement bean counters. Seriously, they need practical shooting training at least monthly shooting a variety of courses under various conditions. Its the sort of training that specialized SWAT teams tend to do now. The "problem" is that most cops won't actually get into a shooting during their careers so those training dollars and hours will be viewed as "wasted" by the bean counters.

Jeff White · Nov 24, 2015

The "problem" is that most cops won't actually get into a shooting during their careers so those training dollars and hours will be viewed as "wasted" by the bean counters.

I've been on both ends of it, on the street for years and finished up as one of the bean counters. I can assure you that no one looked at training money as "wasted". Shootings, as rare as they are will almost always end up with the department in litigation, so it's pretty high up on the list of priorities. The problem is the cost. No one wants to pay the taxes that would be required to pay for training everyone to shoot like the SWAT guys. The biggest cost factor is overtime. A police department can't just shut down and go into a training cycle like the military does. You still have to cover every shift and do everything else the department does normally while you are training.

Its real easy to blame everything on the bean counters and wring your hands and say; "if only the people at the top cared enough my officers could give CAG a run for their money on the range". But the fact is, there is only so much money and most departments run on a line item budget that is approved by elected officials who may not have the same priorities as the sworn leadership of the department. The chief or the sheriff can ask for enough money to train properly but if the elected officials who appropriate the money don't see things that way, the training isn't what it needs to be.

It's a constant meme here that cops don't train the way the hobbyists who make up most of the membership here do. The truth is, that unless the officer is as interested in firearms and shooting as the membership here, he/she is probably going to do things they enjoy on their off duty time.

I wonder how many of the members here who continually complain about cops who can't shoot to their personal standards have ever went to the city council or county board meeting and asked for their taxes to be raised to pay for adequate training.

Landric · Nov 24, 2015

I've been on both ends of it, on the street for years and finished up as one of the bean counters. I can assure you that no one looked at training money as "wasted". Shootings, as rare as they are will almost always end up with the department in litigation, so it's pretty high up on the list of priorities. The problem is the cost. No one wants to pay the taxes that would be required to pay for training everyone to shoot like the SWAT guys. The biggest cost factor is overtime. A police department can't just shut down and go into a training cycle like the military does. You still have to cover every shift and do everything else the department does normally while you are training.

Its real easy to blame everything on the bean counters and wring your hands and say; "if only the people at the top cared enough my officers could give CAG a run for their money on the range". But the fact is, there is only so much money and most departments run on a line item budget that is approved by elected officials who may not have the same priorities as the sworn leadership of the department. The chief or the sheriff can ask for enough money to train properly but if the elected officials who appropriate the money don't see things that way, the training isn't what it needs to be.

It's a constant meme here that cops don't train the way the hobbyists who make up most of the membership here do. The truth is, that unless the officer is as interested in firearms and shooting as the membership here, he/she is probably going to do things they enjoy on their off duty time.

I wonder how many of the members here who continually complain about cops who can't shoot to their personal standards have ever went to the city council or county board meeting and asked for their taxes to be raised to pay for adequate training.

I agree, when I spoke of bean counters I was thinking of the powers that be outside the police department/sheriff's office/other LE agency. I've always been one of the top shooters at the LE agencies I have worked for, and that is including the various tactical team guys, but put me at an IDPA/USPSA or similar match and I'm lucky to be better than the bottom of the top third. Some of those shooters lack the experience making decisions under the kind of stress you face on the street in "real life", but they can run a gun, no doubt.

What cops really need is the sort of training that tactical teams get with firearms, not necessarily with the weapons themselves (carbines, subguns, what have you), but with their duty weapons in practical situations and on a regular, monthly basis. You are correct though, staffing patrol shifts and detective squads is problematic and paying for the ammunition and overtime required to engage in that training is cost prohibitive. People want cops that can perform like ninjas when called upon but they don't want to pay for the training. They do want to judge them for the mistakes that are by definition going to happen more often without it however.

There is clearly not an easy answer. People outside the gun culture have been conditioned by the media (primarily movies) to believe that shooting is extremely easy and guns are instantly effective. When those people are involved in approving budgets they may be hard to convince that additional dollars are needed to train above what the state may require. Plus, who would want to pay higher taxes for cops these days right?

New Univ. MO - St. Louis police study

JTHunter

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Landric

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Jeff White

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Landric

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