St. Louis Mayor and Police Officers Shot 2/7

[TexasRifleman]

Simple, the basic human right is self defense. How that defense is attained is a separate issue.

I personally think I should be allowed to use flame throwers and full auto weapons in self defense as they would have a much more dramatic impacts (audibly, visually, and biologically) on the bad guys, but I am not going to claim that carrying flame throwers and machineguns are basic human rights. That just plain sounds silly, doesn't it?

IF flame throwers and machineguns could demonstrably be proven through historical record to be the proper tool for the job then we can argue for your flamethrower.

It IS demonstrably provable however that handguns in the hands of law abiding citizens are proper tools for self defense, therefore we CAN make that argument that any government that restricts access to the proper tools for self defense is infringing on a basic human right.

It's hardly a stretch to make that argument...Why do police carry handguns?
Because handguns are the best tool for a human to have, on their person, to defend themselves.If flamethrowers worked better they'd have them. That's just one example of course, but the argument is very strong.

The issues are tied together completely. And in point of fact you CAN use fully automatic weapons for self defense still in most areas of this country, though the government has severely restricted your access to such a thing.

You CAN make the argument that fully automatic weapons are an appropriate tool for some self defense uses, and we make that argument here all the time.

Restriction of HOW you exercise a basic human right is woven into that right no matter what.

Examples of others from the BoR using your analogy

1) You can worship any religion you choose but your access to printed materials regarding your chosen diety requires a permit, a background check, and a $200 tax per copy. You have Freedom of Religion still, just your tools to practice it are limited.

1) You certainly may have freedom of the press but you are not allowed to possess or manufacture a printing press that will print more than one copy at a time with a single pull of the handle. Semi automatic or fully automatic printing presses are illegal and you must have a permit to carry a laptop computer with you if you post to the Internet, and you must keep this laptop concealed on your person. Your rights are not infringed here, just your access to the proper tools right?

I mean, those things are not infringements on your rights at all.... are they.....they are just tools so it's OK.

 

[george29]

There is no basic human right to carry a gun, there is a basic human right to be able to properly defend oneself against any oppononent that harbors ill will. It just so happens that if a ball peen hammer in my hand would constitute an imminent threat then you had better be as well armed as I, and trained as well if not better. I happen to be 6'2" and weigh 330, were I to attack your granma, would you want her to have a ball peen hammer in her purse or a .44 snub nose equalizer?

 

[Bryan James]

from what's coming out locally, yes the city fined him over 100 times, for parking his large construction trucks and stuff, in front of his house in a residential zone. I don't think that getting tickets for illegally parking your stuff multiple times gives somebody the right to shoot up city hall.

Now what I've been impressed with so far is the way the local media is covering the story. So far there not blaming guns, or ccw for this. it really looks like they are trying to figure out why and what caused this. While listening to KMOX this morning, which is our local big talk am radio station. one of there usual anti-gun guys, was actually calling for the rethinking of gun-free zones, and the fact that this gun men first targeted the police and left everyone else in the room with no protection. A caller later called in and asked him if he was being devils advocate and just saying it to get callers. and his reply was, No, he prefer there was no guns, but yet law abiding citizens should have the ability to protect themselves if they want. and that criminals, don't obey the laws so what is more guns laws going to do.

Yes I was in shock hearing a radio host say that, and others that listen to kmox after 9am might be shocked too.

Personally it's about time that we start looking into the issues and not just blame guns.

 

[pbearperry]

How can anyone here be so fast in justifying this guy shooting people?I don't care how many tickets someone has received.Killing people because you are upset is not warranted.It seems to me that if a town gave me a ticket for something,I would try to rectify whatever what was wrong.Some of the folks in this forum seem to be thugs.I wonder if they really lawfully own firearms?They seem to be just ball busters.Another question is why do the powers to be in this forum allow people to talk about killing cops as though that was proper behavior in our society?:banghead:

 

[ZeSpectre]

Double Naught Spy, TexasRifleman, et al.
I just realized we're hijacking this thread but I'm very interested in the debate. If you'd like to continue it let's start another thread and I'll join.

Ze

 

[george29]

How can anyone here be so fast in justifying this guy shooting people?I don't care how many tickets someone has received.Killing people because you are upset is not warranted.It seems to me that if a town gave me a ticket for something,I would try to rectify whatever what was wrong.Some of the folks in this forum seem to be thugs.I wonder if they really lawfully own firearms?They seem to be just ball busters.Another question is why do the powers to be in this forum allow people to talk about killing cops as though that was proper behavior in our society?

I didn't notice anyone here justifying the shooting. Do I need to reread the thread?

Just reread the thread, AC from Chicago accussed another of justifying the shooting, no one else agreed with that insinuation, funny how you two guys saw that, must be the air you guys breathe in your respective republiks. You guys oughta get out and visit the United States once in a while.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I realized we're hijacking this thread but I'm very interested in the debate. If you'd like to continue it let's start another thread and I'll join.

I started the thread, hijack away

This kind of thing was my original intent for posting the news item to begin with.

 

[The Drew]

How can anyone here be so fast in justifying this guy shooting people?I don't care how many tickets someone has received.Killing people because you are upset is not warranted.It seems to me that if a town gave me a ticket for something,I would try to rectify whatever what was wrong.Some of the folks in this forum seem to be thugs.I wonder if they really lawfully own firearms?They seem to be just ball busters.Another question is why do the powers to be in this forum allow people to talk about killing cops as though that was proper behavior in our society?

There comes a point at which a government is tyrranical. When that happens, and you've used all non violent means to correct the problem. The only answer is violence. This guy believed he had no other recourse after taking the city to court and losing. He decided to take action and vote with the cartridge box.

Please note that this incident isn't a typical random act of violence, or a guy who wanted to go out in a blaze of glory. He had a target (city council) and followed through. The Police officers were collateral damage.

Take a second and ask yourself what would it take for me to do the same thing? Some people will act sooner than others. Many of us gunowners draw the line with confiscation of our firearms. But the line is there. If you don't have a line, then you are a sheep. And while I may be killed for what I believe in, at least I won't die as a slave.

Our forefathers had a line too, would you say that they were not justified in fighting for independance?

 

[george29]

That sounds like justification. My bad.

 

[The Drew]

That sounds like justification. My bad.

So what if it is?

 

[george29]

Because we don't justify using unlawful violence on this forum even if we are tired of the way government behaves. There is a difference between commiseration and justification. Perhaps you intended the former.

 

[The Drew]

I said what I said, and you are free to interpret it any way you wish. If we are not allowed to discuss how a man justified this action to himself, then why are we discussing this shooting at all??? Just so you can call him another nutjob who will get our rights taken away??? That does nothing either.

 

[george29]

Justifying it to himself was obvious, the question someone raised was, do you The Drew justify it?

 

[The Drew]

I don't, I wouldn't have taken the same actions that he did, for the supposed violations of his civil rights. I just understand why. And if this march to nanny state continues there will be more of this, and maybe someday MY line will be crossed too.

If YOU don't have a line george29, then you really need to reexamine why it is that you even post here.

 

[Risasi]

Because we don't justify using unlawful violence

Again, like the Boston Tea Party?

Our country was founded in violence.


How about the battle of Athens?





Just because they didn't hold a gun to his head doesn't mean these councilmen weren't out to destroy him. My take is this was a bunch of small town politics and I think he was being targeted. Why, I don't know. Maybe he deserved it, maybe not.

Like I said before, we'll see later once all the facts come out. But to say hands down that violence should never be used makes no sense.




Marvin Heemeyer; "I was always willing to be reasonable until I had to be unreasonable. "Sometimes reasonable men must do unreasonable things."

More:

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/analysis.aspx?id=19647

http://images.stltoday.com/stltoday/resources/amendedcomplaint.pdf

http://images.stltoday.com/stltoday/resources/jkirkwoodresponse.pdf

 

[george29]

Most people have some kind of line Drew, mine would be when freedom of speech was made unlawful, but before they do that, they need to take away our guns. In light of what is happening in DC right now,I see just the opposite happening with the Majority of Senators supporting Heller. However, it appears this guy was not fighting for the bread on his table but for his individual right to do as he pleased in a municipality that has the legal right to order certain actions on the behalf of the other residents. I am certain, that even if the town council had a personal distaste toward this guy, he had other recourses. So no, I do not justify this behavior under this circumstance and from your answer, neither do you. Now, what happened in Athens TN was a different story.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Again, like the Boston Tea Party?

Our country was founded in violence.

If you can explain what right of the masses was being violated here in MO then this makes sense, otherwise your analogy doesn't work.

 

[Risasi]

TR,

Are you telling me if one person's rights are being suppressed it doesn't matter, but if it is the rights of many that is a different story?


----

So no, I do not justify this behavior under this circumstance and from your answer, neither do you. Now, what happened in Athens TN was a different story.

Noted George.

 

[bogie]

Okay - watched some more news...

Turns out he was an asphalt contractor.

If he was parking his stuff on the street in Kirkwood, you can bet damn skippy that half his neighbors were calling the cops, and telling them to get it off the street.

Anyone comment on the _other_ obvious thing about the fellow?

 

[Risasi]

Found another article:

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/ne...31A21310F282795C862573E9001B1D59?OpenDocument

Anne Bell Thornton called what had happened terrible, but said her son was provoked by the city.

"No one should kill," she said. "But people shouldn't drive people to kill."

BTW, another article I found said he owed hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines. I've also seen "thousands", "fifteen-thousand", I would like to get an exact number.

If he was parking his stuff on the street in Kirkwood, you can bet damn skippy that half his neighbors were calling the cops, and telling them to get it off the street.

I also saw that Bogie, I was trying to find out what started all of this and it appears to go back well over 10 years. Also from what I've found none of his neighbors seemed to hold any animosity toward him.

Trying to put myself in this guy's shoes, honestly I don't know what I would do. If he owes that much in fines it's not as if he can just pick up and move, or change jobs. He likely had his whole life tied up in his work. Not to mention his family. Apparently he had at least two siblings and a mother.

You know if this were a hundred years ago someone in this predicament could go west. 400 years ago one could go to the "new world" and start over.

Guys there is nowhere to run anymore. This guy was cornered, regardless of whether or not it was his fault. And the law is a harsh mistress.

---
Just to try to reiterate and make my views publicly known. Broadly speaking I say live and let live. I try to make an honest living, cause no offense to others and pay my taxes.
But I know I would have a breaking point, and if provoked would not hesitate to defend myself, even if that means resorting to violence (obviously I would try other means first). Now if put into a situation where I felt I had nothing to lose I know I would react poorly.



TexesRifleman, you asked what the Tea Party had to do with this MO incident, nothing save for the fact that when an individual's rights are violated eventually it becomes the rights of the many being violated. This is why I want to know all the details behind this sordid story before I condemn our hero/villain. Maybe he was a real scum bag who should have been strung up a long time ago. Maybe he was being oppressed. Or maybe it's a gradient and all the men on both sides were evil.

You proved one thing to me. In your mind an individual's rights aren't important, only the "masses". For the good of the many the one must die...


[EDIT] Found a thread from one of the local news sites: http://www.stltoday.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=5346346

 

[another okie]

Explaining and understanding are different than justifying.

There's a reason the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, but that doesn't make it right. It was still their fault.

This shooting had a motivation, but explaining the motivation is not the same as saying it was right.

 

[Risasi]

I can go along with that another okie,


The question is who is Japan in this scenario?

Thornton certainly sounds like a kamikaze... (tongue firmly in cheek)

 

[bogie]

Thing is, the city had rules. One cannot say that they are not subject to the rules due to the color of their skin. However, the guy seemed to get into his head that the city was specifically out to get him. When he repeatedly violated the law. Were his _neighbors_ parking work trucks in the area? I doubt it. From what I understand, he was running an asphalt business. Personally, I wouldn't want a neighbor bringing an asphalt truck home, stinking, and leaving it in the street all night. So I'm guessing he likely got more than a few tickets...

Did you know some cities don't allow commercial vehicles to park outdoors after a certain time at night? And that they assume a vehicle is commercial if you've got your phone number, etc., on it...

FWIW, I knew a guy who ran a business, but lived in University City, MO... They've got a "no trucks" ordinance. He rented parking at a self-storage area.

 

[a1abdj]

I also saw that Bogie, I was trying to find out what started all of this and it appears to go back well over 10 years. Also from what I've found none of his neighbors seemed to hold any animosity toward him.

They said on the news that this guy had run a business out of his home, and parked his equipment there for years without problems, before his part of town was annexed by Kirkwood. Once his area was annexed, Kirkwood started fining him under their ordinances.

 

[DKSuddeth]

while most deaths could be considered tragic, it seems like this guy had exhausted all his 'boxes' save the last one, and he used it.