Any small SA/DA 1911's?

For clarity, have you noticed you are the only one that keeps calling these SA/DA, while everybody else refers to the action as DA/SA? Most of these guns start out in DA with subsequent shots in SA. I can't think of any (surely there must be some) that start out as SA with subsequent shots as DA.

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A few DA/SA guns can be started from SA (most notably the non-decocker CZ-pattern guns) so some folks INTENTIONALLY call them SA/DA, emphasizing the SA start capability. And some of the decocker-equipped gun don't always start from the hammer FULLY down...(With the CZ pattern guns, the trigger stroke is slightly lighter and shorter when starting from half-cock, which is where the decocker leaves those guns.)

Col. Pink's request for a SA/DA 1911 is like tying to find a V8 that was built with only 6 cylinders. Making a 1911 into a DA/SA gun while keeping the features that makes the 1911 design so popular (the great SA trigger and relatively thin frame) would seemingly require more than a minor redesign.

Walt Sherrill wrote,
A few DA/SA guns can be started from SA (most notably the non-decocker CZ-pattern guns) ...

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I was pretty sure you were the one going to bring up CZ as I was typing my above post, but I intentionally listed the other guns, TDA's and left off the "cocked and locked" capable CZ for that reason.

For clarity's sake, I meant the OP about compact single-stack .45's that can start in DA or SA and go on in SA.

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So you really are looking for a CZ type cocked and locked or DA gun (I still wouldn't call that SA/DA, but beside the point).

It can't be DA/SA like a SIG P220 Compact http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/p220r-compact.aspx

or a SA version like the SIG P220 Carry SAO http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/p220-carry-sao.aspx

We've already shown the ParaUSA LDA above, but here it is again http://para-usa.com/2013/firearms/lda/ldaOfficer_45.php

Col. Pink said:

For clarity's sake, I meant the OP about compact single-stack .45's that can start in DA or SA and go on in SA. To me this seems "1911ish" to warrant the wording of the OP; for others, it clearly is not. Why someone wanting a "1911" that is DA/SA would draw comparison to a V8 missing cylinders is beyond me. Doesn't seems like anything like a "drastic redesign" to me...

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When you keyed "1911" you invoked a magic word. The 1911 is generally considered the gold standard of all SA guns, and when you asked for a DA/SA 1911 you sort of created a oxymoron or self-contradictory design concept. There are some guns that almost fit that description, but none of them are DA/SA or allow a SA start. That was why I mentioned a V8 that had 6 cylinders. Had you just said "compact DA/SA single-stack .45" you would have gotten much different answers and a lot less flak. Saying 1911 implies single stack, single action and a DA/SA version of that seems strange.

CZ did it, with their original 75, making it DA/SA from scratch, but allowing a cocked & locked start. Just removing the disconnector let them convert the DA/SA model to SA, and modifying the hammer and removing the safety was all that was needed to convert the DA/SA model to DAO.

Had you made the same comment about the Browning Hi-Power (BHP) instead of a 1911, asking for a DA/SA version, you probably would have gotten a similar set of replies, and I think that such changes to either weapon WOULD require a drastic redesign. When Browning introduced the BDM, which seemed to be a DA/SA BHP, FNH made the outside look like the BHP, but internally it was more like a S&W 2nd Gen semi-auto. I don't think they would have made such a big change to the basic design had they been able to do otherwise.

SIG has made both DA/SA and SA versions of the P220 and I've had some of both. I suspect that by dropping the decocker and adding a safety, they could give you a DA/SA gun that could also offer an optional C&L start. But, the P220 was (like the CZ-75) designed as a DA/SA gun from the start; modifying it to allow a cocked & locked start probably would NOT require a major redesign. Going the other way -- SA to DA/SA -- would be harder.

Had you made the same comment about the Browning Hi-Power (BHP) instead of a 1911, asking for a DA/SA version, you probably would have gotten a similar set of replies, and I think that such changes to either weapon WOULD require a drastic redesign. When Browning introduced the BDM, which seemed to be a DA/SA BHP, FNH made the outside look like the BHP, but internally it was more like a S&W 2nd Gen semi-auto. I don't think they would have made such a big change to the basic design had they been able to do otherwise.

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There actually were double action Hi-Powers back in the '90s. They never imported very many of them, and they weren't terribly popular. CDNN would import lots of them from time to time, but they're long gone.

HP-DA

Are you referring to the 8-round HK45c and the longer grip 10-round HK45? The ones who's mags witness holes are all in a straight line?

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1.5 stack? They are definitely more staggered than, say, a 1911 or Sig P220. From what I've seen the single column witness holes don't really line up with the rounds like a true single stack would.

Guess I've never cut one in half to see how the rounds lined up.

Edit: From the clarification to the OP, I still say try to find that Compact Sig P220, as it seems to be what you are looking for. Problem is that I've never actually SEEN one myself.

Deanimator said:

There actually were double action Hi-Powers back in the '90s. They never imported very many of them, and they weren't terribly popular. CDNN would import lots of them from time to time, but they're long gone.

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You're right. FN They buillt a BDM/BPM/BRM (all basically the same gun), all DA/SA or DAO, as well as a Browning DA9 (which was not imported to the US). Most of the DA/SA Brownings I've seen for sale on the internet were the BDM-type guns and they were clearly NOT based on the BHP/P-35 design. I'm not sure, but I don't think they were called Hi-Powers... Keep in mind, too, that Browning was primarily an import and marketing firm, and made relatively few of the guns it sold. FN owned Browning at that point.

The FN DA9 was DA/SA and most had a decocker, and held fewer rounds than the BHP... as did the PRO-9/PRO-40, which seemed to be a similar gun but with polymer frames. (The "Pro" models may be the predecessors of the current FNP and FNX guns.) I've never been able to find out much about those Brownings (which are like the ones pictured in your link). The BLUE BOOK OF GUN VALUES says they were made by FN in the US, and sold in 2003-2006. I don't remember ever seeing them advertised or for sale.

As best I can tell, the main difference between the Browning and FN Hi-Powers ( which were available in Europe but much less common in the US), was that the Browning roll-marked guns guns were generally much better looking, with high gloss finishes and fancy grips, unlike the plain jane FN models. I think they were all made in the same factories.

Most of the DA/SA Brownings I've seen for sale on the internet were the BDM-type guns and they were clearly NOT based on the BHP/P-35 design. (They made a DAO version, too.)

FN later licensed the SIG P220 and sold it as the Browning BDA (in 9mm, .38 Super and .45), and it was DA/SA. A friend had one of those and it was almost identical to the SIG P220. The other BDAs that Browning sold were .380s, and based on a Beretta design. FN apparently gave up on DA/SA designs for a decade... They're new FN guns are all DA/SA, and now they're doing striker-fired versions.

The gun in the link is clearly based on the CZ design, and if it's a compact, it just about has to be double-stack, not single-stack. (That said, I suspect it's not much bigger in the grip than a SIG P220 -- and they do make smaller versions of that weapon.) It may be pretty close to what you're looking for. Glock now has some more-compact .45s, at least one of which is single-stack. The Glock triggers are not 1911-like.

The Para USA LDA (Light Double Action) design is interesting, I wasn't impressed with the one I tried, but some people do like them.

Col. Plink wrote,
The Sig 220R compact seems great; can't start in SA though? (confused by JTQ's post above...)

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You're confused by my post?

You could have probably avoided 80% of the posts in this thread instead of saying...

So who makes compact 1911's in SA/DA (and 45)?

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You could have instead said...

I'm looking for a compact .45 Auto, DA/SA gun, that allows cocked and locked carry.

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That is assuming after #35 posts in, that's what you're looking for, though I'm not sure we really do know at this point.

Read somewhere recently that Para has been taken over by Remington who may produce some under the Remington brand. So, the Para SA/DA shown above may or may not be available. Personally, i like the Para concept.

It's simple, if it ain't SA it ain't a 1911.

I would recommend a compact p220. I never seen a da/sa 1911. Or heard of one for that matter. Owning both a 1911 and p220. I take my p220 over the 1911.

Seecamp?

https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=273563

So can the Sig 220R start in SA or not?

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The SIG 220R Compact could, but shouldn't http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/p220r-compact.aspx

The SIG 220 SAO is designed to start out cocked and locked, though it doesn't give you DA capability http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/p220-carry-sao.aspx

Also, never said anything about 'cocked and locked', DA/SA with the hammer down on a chambered round seems preferable, though the option to start in SA seems important as well (hence the OP).

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Starting out in SA, at least if you are talking about a holstered gun is "cocked and locked" unless you intend to violate most safety protocols for holstered guns.

So I thought I'd explained why I was looking for what, to me, would be like a scaled-down 1911 in metal-framed, beaver-tailed, similar grip angle, single stack .45 that might also (shudder!) be DA/SA. If that last part is too great a departure from what some say MUST constitute anything referred to as '1911', then your tizzy is your deal. '1911' is not a magic word; I can use it all day without Beetlejuice or Biggy Smalls showing up to grant my wishes.

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You can use any terminology you want, but it causes confusion since most folks have a general understanding of what guns are.

How about this...

I like to find a metal framed Glock in .38 Special, with removable grip side panels, a decocker, and an exposed hammer. Do you see my point?

What it appears you want is what your CZ97 is, only smaller. The CZ97 is nothing like a 1911.

Col. Pink said:

If that last part is too great a departure from what some say MUST constitute anything referred to as '1911', then your tizzy is your deal. '1911' is not a magic word; I can use it all day without Beetlejuice or Biggy Smalls showing up to grant my wishes.

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Actually, when you try to communicate on a handgun forum like this, 1911 IS a magic word -- sort of like invoking the name of a god (i.e., JMB)... And while you clearly don't appreciate the power of that term, many here do!

I spent a good part of my adult life working as a techinical writer. One of the painful things I learned was that anyone can write and be understood, but it's far harder to write so that you're not misunderstood. In the broadest sense of the word, you were misunderstood, and it wasn't entirely the readers' fault.

.

What I'd like is a DA/SA Sig 1911 Ultra Carry... it's compact, it's German

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For what it's worth, all SIG 1911's have been made in the USA. Since they don't make a DA/SA SIG 1911 Ultra Carry, you're going to have to pick something else.

I keep posting the SIG P220R Compact http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/p220r-compact.aspx

You have not said if that meets your needs. If you can give up DA, there are of course bunches of compact 1911's that are single action that would fit your other criteria.

Kahr makes a handful of single stack DA pistols in .45 Auto that may be close to what you want. https://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Pistols.asp

We'd like to help, but I think were at a loss since it seems there isn't anything that meets your criteria.

Edit to add: MERRY CHRISTMAS, and best of luck with your search.

As noted above, SIG 1911s are true 1911s, with only minor variations from the original design. They, like other 1911s, can't be easily (or practically) modified to do DA/SA.

The LDA 1911-like guns from Para-Ordnance seems to be your best bet. If that's unacceptable, you'd have to consider a different sort of compromise: you're not going to get a 1911 action that can do DA...

Since I don't think you specified hammer-fired, a Kahr .45 is pretty close to what you want -- if you can stand polymer frames. A steel-framed Kahr would be even closer, but they don't show them as available in .45 on their website.

Kahr does offer several models in .40 with metal frames. They are thin like a 1911, about the same size as a compact 1911 (or even smaller) and since a C&L start doesn't seem to be a big interest for you, the DAO trigger shouldn't be an issue, either. The Kahr DAO triggers are generally pretty good. Some years ago I had a 9mm metal-framed kahr that had been tuned before I bought it used, and it was very nice.

http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-K40-Elite.asp

.,

I have a Kahr P45, bought in '07, that I've put a couple thou rounds thru. Relatively light weight, carry's nicely in an OWB holster. Kahr's all have a very long smooth trigger pull, no stacking. Also have one in 380 and 9mm that I carry at times as well. There is an active
Kahr forum with good tips on how to perform your own mods to smooth things out even more if you like.