Modern Handguns - +P or Not ?

My R9 pistol has marking on magazine indicating +p ammo should not be used. Fine with me.

JohnKSa said:

If you're buying a gun specifically so you can shoot +P in it, you might want to consider buying the gun in another caliber so you can shoot standard pressure ammunition in it and still get the performance you desire. Just my opinion.

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Two thumbs up John.

People keep trying to make 9mm perform, so they +P it; that isn't enough so they get dangerous and buy +P+ (which has no definition). Why? Just get the .357Sig and you're shooting a standard pressure cartridge with more energy than the +P+ round.

Oh, I forgot about the extra three rounds you can get with 9mm.

Two more thumbs up. If you really believe you "need" +P loads - you didn't buy the right gun. Even if a gun will "handle it" - it will shorten the life of the gun.

Operating pressure of the 357SIG is what, 44k psi?

I prefer the 9mm ammunition selection, I carry the Ranger 127gr +P+ in a Glock 17,
Standard or +P in a Hi-Power/Beretta 92 FS.
Preference is Speer Gold Dot, Federal HST and Winchester Ranger T or bonded.

The above three ammunition manufacturers all have LE contracts and there are numerous choices to choose from.

For me, +P is viable for 9mm, 38 Special and 45auto, +P+ in 9mm.

I'm not a big fan of +P ammo. I will use in J frame sized guns chambered for 357 or K frame sized guns. My idea of a +P 38 is called a 357. My idea of a +P 9mm is a 357 SIG. If I need a +P 357, I'll use a 44 magnum. If I need bigger than that I use a rifle.

If you look at manufacturers charts of +P and +P+ ammo you don't see that much more expansion and 100-150 fps at most in velocity. I've chronographed a lot of +P loads and many times they are only 50-75 fps more. Thats a variation you can find testing loads in w identical guns.

I don't see that minimal extra velocity as a make or break edge. It's also harder on the gun.

G. M., To my knowledge,I don't have any modern 9MMs that are not recommended for 9MM +P. Some of the other members here can likely supply that information. From personal experience though, I have used thousands of rounds of +P+, +P, NATO and equivalent reloads in a variety of 9MM pistols, revolvers and carbines. None have ever beat themselves to death, broke, bent, cracked or deformed any parts. I don't have any concern in using the ammo I mentioned in quality firearms in good repair. Of course, a prudent person would not use +P+, or even +P, in firearms of dubious heritage and/or condition.

BTW, I have chronographed quite a variety of 9MM ammo in different types of firearms over a good many years. This included Remington, Winchester and Federal 9MM +P+. Yes, +P+ velocities are higher than most +P ammo. CorBon 9MM +P, often as not though, equals or exceeds major manufacturers' +P+ velocities. Apparently there are enough law enforcement agencies that have determined there is value in 9MM +P+ to keep it production. It has been my experience that law enforcement agencies buying all kinds of equipment and supplies, including millions of rounds of ammunition every year, do not tend to buy equipment and supplies, including ammunition, likely to inadvertently injure officers or the public, or damage or significantly reduce the service life of department or officer owned firearms........ymmv

Most modern guns can handle +P. I had an older Sig Sauer P226 & I spoke to a rep at Sig who told me not to shoot any +P in it. He explained that +P 9mm didn't exist when my gun was made & that's why they changed the design from a stamped, three-piece slide to a stainless one-piece slide. He said people were shooting +P's in their older Sig Sauer 9mm's & 45 autos & frames were cracking.

I had doubts until I asked a range employee & he showed me two old P220 frames that were cracked near the locking block.

There is only 4 cartridges that SAAMI has designated as having a +P loading and one of those the .38 super +P is questionable as the .38 super has always been a high pressure loading of the .38 Colt automatic round. I guess they just wanted to make sure that everyone knew that the "super" was the high pressure loading of the old cartridge since the cartridge designation of "super" wasn't modern enough so that people would know it was high pressure.

The other 3 cartridges are the 9x19 (9mm Luger), .38 spl and the .45 ACP.

A +P load that is within SAAMI standards won't blow up any gun that meets the accepted "proof" standards as proof loads are ever higher pressure than +P. What does happen with some modern light weight guns like the early .38 spl aluminum frame Air Weights was that they could be damaged by the use of +P ammo. This damage was a stretching and sometimes cracking of the frame.

Current manufacturers are using stronger and more durable alloys of aluminum and heavier springs in semi autos that are able to withstand +P ammo. Since the early 80's manufactured firearms that can't withstand much use of +P ammo are generally inexpensive products of smaller companies and some foreign made. Manufacturers will clearly state in their manuals that owners shouldn't use +P ammo in their firearms if they are not strong enough to last a reasonable length of service. Most companies will brag that their guns are +P capable as a marketing tool.

It is interesting some folks say you should not use +P because it wears out the gun faster, so you would be better off going to a larger caliber. The irony is that 9mm, .357SIG, and .40 are usually built off the same frame and slide, and the 9mm, even if fed +P, will last much longer than the .40 or .357 versions. A good example of this is the G17/19 vs a G22/23. 9mm Glocks will run forever fed whatever you want. Gen 4 was brought about partly to address .40-cal durability issues.

Also worth noting some calibers like 9mm or .38 Special are downloaded from their original specs. Going +P isn't taking them into uncharted territory, it is returning them to what they used to be.

www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/ammo.aspx

I've never been too excited about the difference in 124 grain 9mm vs 124 grain 9mm +P Gold Dots.

1150 vs 1220 from 4-inch barrels.

I doubt I'd use +P even if my Rohrbaugh was made for it, considering the short barrel, etc. It's not like it would turn it into a 125 grain .357 at 1450 fps.

Most modern guns will handle +p just fine, especially if it is just the occasional self defense loads put through it. Don't pick +p just for more power or velocity. Choose it if there is an excellent performing clambering in terms of terminal ballistics in your caliber and it is available at a good price. Some of the best 9mm loads happen to be +p, but there are some solid standard pressure choices as well. Speer 115g standard pressure Gold Dot is a solid performer.

eldon519 said:

Also worth noting some calibers like 9mm or .38 Special are downloaded from their original specs. Going +P isn't taking them into uncharted territory, it is returning them to what they used to be.

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There is truth there. .38 Special ammo the mark +P today was mearly "normal" .38 Special ammo shot in the original S&W M&P and Chief's Special. They aren't marked +P because there was no such thing back in the 50's and 60's.

They even dropped the .38 Special down from 21,500 to 20,000 to 18,500 psi to protect those super light guns being made today. I my mind the guns should be produced to safely fire the ammo, not down load the ammo and deprive shooters of the full potential of the cartridge they choose to carry.

According to SCCY's website, +P loads are only recommended for "very limited use" and only in their 2nd gen guns. So add that to your list I guess.

I think if you go to any given manufacturer's website you will find that they will tell you if the ammunition meets SAAMI specifications that you can use it. The SAAMI specs. are what the guns are designed for. +P, +P+, etc. are not SAAMI spec. cartridges and it is anybodies guess what the specs. are, even perhaps the manufacturers themselves.

Buyer and user beware! Your guns are built with safety factors based on SAAMI specs.

Of course, you guys are smarter than the people designing this stuff ...

Of course, you guys are smarter than the people designing this stuff ...

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as a design engineer....you give far to much credit to design engineers to actually "design stuff"......

very little is actually designed from ground up now a days........the vast majority of stuff is a tweak or a modification to a design and design standards of legacy projects....

i often joke that all the engineering done was done in 1943, and everything since then is just a derivative of that original design, tweaked slightly to meet a new requirement....

M-Cameron said:

very little is actually designed from ground up now a days........the vast majority of stuff is a tweak or a modification to a design and design standards of legacy projects....

i often joke that all the engineering done was done in 1943, and everything since then is just a derivative of that original design, tweaked slightly to meet a new requirement....

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Every single firearm is a derivative of the first time someone had the idea to shoot a projectile out of a tube with gunpowder. Tiny little tweaks until we have what we have today. Hell, you could even go back to blow guns.

modern handguns + P or not

Recently I saw that Ruger has come out with a new pistol (AMERICAN I think) and the Ruger Website states it is ok to use +P ammo.
It's the first time I've ever seen a company make that claim.

Not to hijack the thread, but why doesn't the .40s&w have a +p version?

tdstout said:

Not to hijack the thread, but why doesn't the .40s&w have a +p version?

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Probably because it's not necessary to sell the cartridge. The 40 S&W is fairly new in the cartridge world and was developed with higher pressures probably because there were no fears of blowing up guns that were manufactured 50 or 100 years ago. Add the fact bullets are so much better now, IMO no need for +P.

Hairy Clipper said:

The SAAMI specs. are what the guns are designed for. +P, +P+, etc. are not SAAMI spec. cartridges

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While that is the case for some cartridges, there are in fact SAAMI specs for 9mm +P, .38spl +P, and .45ACP +P ammo.

I personally would consider any handgun of modern manufacturer that would not handle +P ammo, in these chamberings at least, to be defective and would not purchase it.

The R51 easily handles 9mm +P, and oddly enough the added impulse is completely damped out from the shooter's perspective by the unique action (it feels the same as standard, only louder, the few times I've ponied up to shoot the hot stuff)

TCB