Quite a Conundrum-Open Carry at the Rupublican Convention

Downtown Cleveland is where you will not find me during the coming weeks. No way do I plan to be anywhere near downtown. Much of the inner security areas around Quicken Loans Arena will be under secret service control. Anyway, I'll just hang out here in suburbia and watch the circus.

Ron

The Republican party is not some monolithic Pro-2nd-Amendment machine marching in lock step with the NRA, and certainly not with those of us a little more extreme in our views than the NRA usually is.

Why anyone would be surprised that they aren't/can't/won't push all of their venues to be free-gun-carry zones, I don't know.

Sure there are security issues. And there are PR issues, too. The Republican party really doesn't want to annoy any of the RKBA zealots (who don't have much of a choice but to pull the "R" lever in any election), but at the same time, they REALLY don't want to be shown on teevee with lots of folks standing around with firearms because that's going to terrify a bunch of middle-of-the-road voters and make the party look like an armed movement. And, of course, when you jam that many people into one space and get emotions roiling (and throw in some protesters, to boot) some folks are bound to get a little cross-ways with the law, and the even WORSE thing for the Repub's PR is going to be the field day the press will have when the police are spotted disarming and arresting some less-than-cautious nitwits who drew the wrong kind of attention and ended up overstepping the law somehow.

So, many R candidates may be publicly "ok" with open carry, having hundreds of attendees (out of several tens of thousands) show up with their rifles is going to look like an endorsement by the party of that. Sort of "Hey, y'all show up ta vote, and bring yer GUNZ!" -- and that's going to look like the kind of politics that would (probably rightly) scare the pants off of any casual observer.

As they say, you can vote with the ballot box, or with the cartridge box. But in a civil society you don't want to give the impression that we're getting close to the latter.

Two thoughts here:

1. One point that has been made here more than once is that a venue that is secured by capable armed personnel (Secret Service certainly ought to be considered capable, yes?) and has metal detectors at the entrances, is a far cry from the typical "gun-free zone" and a place where it is ok to prohibit concealed carry. Usually courthouses are cited as an example.

2. Anyone SERIOUS about protecting our gun rights has to realize that this election is critical in that regard. Even ONE person (other than a uniformed LEO of course) open carrying at the convention, would be photographed by all the "mainstream" media as proof that GOP supporters are a bunch of gun maniacs... and that would lose Trump a lot of votes from fence sitters. We have to be smarter than that.

If i had my "druthers", CCW would be legal and allowed everywhere. However, the O.P. has lost sight of the fact that we do not always get our way. These venues are private property owned by one person or corporation and rented by another person or corporation. The second, of course, being the republican party.

There are property rights involved, it is the right of the owner and depending on terms of the rental agreement, possibly the right of the renter to allow or disallow CCW. Or clowns, or sword swallowers, or green shirts if it strikes their fancy.

Then there is the security advisory team, which includes local police, county deputies, state troopers and secret service. I have a strong suspicion they had a say in this decision. (yes, that was sarcasm)

I could go on with more, but it just irked me that motive was assumed, while facts and circumstance suggest the opined motive was not at all an accurate representation of the situation. Yes, we have rights. We also, though, have responsibilities. One of those responsibilities is recognizing the rights of others.

old lady new shooter said:

Two thoughts here:

1. One point that has been made here more than once is that a venue that is secured by capable armed personnel (Secret Service certainly ought to be considered capable, yes?) and has metal detectors at the entrances, is a far cry from the typical "gun-free zone" and a place where it is ok to prohibit concealed carry. Usually courthouses are cited as an example.

2. Anyone SERIOUS about protecting our gun rights has to realize that this election is critical in that regard. Even ONE person (other than a uniformed LEO of course) open carrying at the convention, would be photographed by all the "mainstream" media as proof that GOP supporters are a bunch of gun maniacs... and that would lose Trump a lot of votes from fence sitters. We have to be smarter than that.

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Yes. A location with metal detectors and security is different than a victim-zone posted sign. It is what it is. I had to give up a small 2-inch blade case knife to watch a boxing event at the Q many years ago.

“The point I’m driving towards, and maybe it’s taking me too long to get there, is that not only is it not true that we are the greatest because we are the freest, rather precisely the opposite is true: We are the freest because we have those qualities that make us the greatest. For freedom is a luxury that can be afforded only by the good society. When civic virtue diminishes, freedom will inevitably diminish as well.

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With freedom, comes the requirement of self restraint.

Speedo66 It's interesting to see people who represent the Republican platform, which includes 2A rights, back peddle as they discuss open carry at the forthcoming convention.

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It isn't the Republican Party's call as to allowing open or concealed carry of firearms.

When the US Secret Service is involved in protective duties of the President, Vice President, their families and or Presidential candidates a firearm exclusion zone exists. So if the USSS says "no guns", it's "no guns".

There is a time and place for everything. I have a handgun carry permit but I don't carry in well-policed venues packed with collateral damage (such as the local Fun Fest event, which can include 25,000 at the stadium concert). If anything the RNC (18-21 Jul) and DNC (25-28 Jul) Conventions are going to be over-policed with security on the lookout for potential assassins.

The conventions are private venues, are not open to the general public, and will have professionally trained security.

It is not like a business open to the general public that posts "no guns" but does not provide protection.

The Republican party is not some monolithic Pro-2nd-Amendment machine marching in lock step with the NRA, and certainly not with those of us a little more extreme in our views than the NRA usually is.

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This cannot be reiterated enough, unfortunately. Heck, even the NRA cannot be considered a "cohesive body" if you actually count its members' influence on things. And the org is definitely not in line with the RKBA purists, to be certain (No Fly No Vote, anyone?)

If a courtroom can be considered a reasonable place to forbid the bearing of arms (so long as sufficient armed protection is also provided in its place) because of the prevalence of intense emotions among those present with nothing, or everything to lose...

...I'd say a political convention is even more deserving, particularly one this heated. That's why the goal is to keep things as controlled & orderly as possible, that's why armed security will be provided & then some, and that's why this (private) assembly in a public place can reasonably require attendees to go unarmed.

Now, if the orgs rabble-rousing outside wish to take their chances with a large, unruly, emotional crowd, without taking any precautions to control the situation, well that's their prerogative, but also their responsibility (or at least it should be) if things get out of hand and Cleveland's finest have to step in and restore order.

TCB

I understand why the national convention is limited to the professionals carrying guns, and I wouldn't even complain, particularly since the event itself is sure to have more than its share of armed security.

The "gun free" zones with zero armed security...entirely different story.

The "gun free" zones with zero armed security...entirely different story.

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I heard a good one the other day; "but you have to give up your freedom of speech to enter a library"

At least they've moved beyond the "fire in a theatre" cliche

A new twist to this is the announcement that the Black Panthers intend to protest and to the extent Ohio law allows will be open carrying at the convention.
I doubt they will get inside but no doubt will be in the streets.
George Soros is getting his moneys worth.

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I dont see any need to carry inside the convention.

yugorpk said:

I dont see any need to carry inside the convention.

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Well, whenever somebody says that about any location, I can only ask...are they providing a service that will check your firearm at the door/entrance so that you can carry right up to it/immediately upon exiting?

X-Rap said:

A new twist to this is the announcement that the Black Panthers intend to protest and to the extent Ohio law allows will be open carrying at the convention.
I doubt they will get inside but no doubt will be in the streets.
George Soros is getting his moneys worth.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

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New Black Panther Party chairman says his members will carry guns during protests prior to Republican National Convention

Like I mentioned early on in this thread. No plans for the downtown circus which is evolving. Nope, just hanging here n the burbs cleaning my guns. Getting too old for all the BS.

Ron

Warp said:

Well, whenever somebody says that about any location, I can only ask...are they providing a service that will check your firearm at the door/entrance so that you can carry right up to it/immediately upon exiting?

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Well the problem with that is the area. The actual convention will be held in a large arena building now called Quicken Loans Arena. The area surrounding the arena and I forget how far in any direction, will be a secure zone (enter the secret service). The secret service decides all the zone stuff. Now if you would like to come by and discuss their policy and plans with them I am sure they will be thrilled to talk to you.

It's not like checking your gun at the door like a coat check.

Ron

Reloadron said:

Well the problem with that is the area. The actual convention will be held in a large arena building now called Quicken Loans Arena. The area surrounding the arena and I forget how far in any direction, will be a secure zone (enter the secret service). The secret service decides all the zone stuff. Now if you would like to come by and discuss their policy and plans with them I am sure they will be thrilled to talk to you.

It's not like checking your gun at the door like a coat check.

Ron

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Exactly my point.

It is ignorant to distill the whole thing down to "you don't need to carry there", because

1-That is up to the individual to decide, on a matter of want/choose, with no requirement to demonstrate a "need" to anybody else, and

2-Going to a location where you must disarm also means being disarmed to and from...Cleveland doesn't seem like the best place to be disarmed to and from simply because of the destination.


So while I do understand the RNC/Secret Service not allowing firearms there save for the professionals tasked with security as part of the overall plan, I also see that it creates an awkward situation for those who wish to be armed to and from EVEN IF they fully accept being disarmed while they are there

Warp,
I'll tell ya this. Cleveland really is not any different than most major cities. There are areas of the city where at 1:00 AM I feel comfortable and areas where I would be uncomfortable even carrying a sub machine gun. Personally, my wife and I have great eating in the burbs and short of an occasional good play (Jersey Boys in September) we have little to no reason to go downtown. Then too we are not in our 20s anymore or 30s for that matter.

For us the RNC is no big deal. Would I feel comfortable less a gun in the area? Yeah, I would. I simply have no reason to be there. The protesters will obstruct traffic as they always do and by not being there I don't have to resist the urge to run them over with my truck.

So for me it is not really a matter of I don't need to carry there because but more a matter of I have no reason to even be there.

Ron

I have no issue with open carry although I do not myself. I do see issues when the white supremacy group is going to Cleveland to provide security
http://www.inquisitr.com/3253902/wh...-protect-trump-supporters-from-leftist-thugs/

And the black panthers are going to open carry to protect the protesters.
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/Ne...leveland-GOP-Convention/2016/07/12/id/738333/

I hope and pray for the cops in Cleveland and any volunteers the have working the convention. It's gonna be a long week for them.

hso said:

I don't understand why this question comes up considering that prospective POTUS candidates all have Secret Service protective details that don't permit any sort of weapon near the candidates. It wouldn't matter if the GOP and candidate were as pro 2A as Gary Johnson and the Libertarian Party, the Secret Service would keep all weapons out of the hall.

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I think at this point it has to do with protesters outside the hall.

I won't comment my opinions on OC but two opposing "protest groups" both OC'ing seems like a recipe for disaster.


I hope it's a relatively uneventful event...

Reloadron said:

Downtown Cleveland is where you will not find me during the coming weeks. No way do I plan to be anywhere near downtown. Much of the inner security areas around Quicken Loans Arena will be under secret service control. Anyway, I'll just hang out here in suburbia and watch the circus.

Ron

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this.

any presidential candidate, either party, anywhere near me is grounds for me to make a rapid departure from that area. things are just a bit too hot for me these day. not saying it's because of responsible gun ownership, feelings in either direction towards the 2A, or any other reason than simply not wanting to be around when there is so much potential for flare ups.

Maybe a bit OT but my wife just asked me if I thought some of the counter-groups might try to instigate some kind of violence at the convention in order to "raise awareness" of their group. Several come to mind. Any thoughts? That could be a serious setback to the 2A movement in the minds of fence sitters out there.