Do's and Don'ts When Teaching a Carry Class???

leadaddict said:

I would agree that having a LOADED gun in the classroom is asking for trouble.

However, the NRA Training Counselor I've been working with suggested a different approach rather than not ever holding a gun. The NRA basic pistol course requires there be real firearms in the classroom. If the point is to teach someone who is not familiar with pistols how to safely handle them, then having real pistols in the room is essential. I see the permit to carry class in a similar way. I don't know the knowledge or ability of the people coming to the class, but I want them to leave with the confidence that they can safely handle a real pistol. That is the main point of the course, as per state law.

From a safety standpoint, it is recommended that the classroom be completely free of ammunition. No loaded guns, no loaded mags, no boxes of ammo, no lose ammo, no range bags full of ammo, (you get the point). That, along with being fanatically dedicated to teaching and adhering to the safety rules insures a safe and effective learning environment. This is how several classroom settings I've been in relating to firearms training have been run. Having students or other instructors verify weapons as unloaded and the absence of ammo as well.

Now I'm curious to know if you, or others, see any problems with this approach.

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This is what my NRA Instructor advised as well and I will use a live firearm in the classroom on occasion. I do not typically use a live firearm for CCW. Usually it is for introductory courses.

My method is thus:
First, I tell the class that I am about to introduce a live firearm in the class.
Next I explain that myself, PLUS two other people will check the firearm.
I further explain that anytime the firearm leaves my hands for any reason, I will check the firearm PLUS two other people will check the firearm.

So far I have received lots of positive feedback from students on being comfortable with that approach.
I do not have ammo in the class.

For CCW I use a "blue gun" but explain its purpose and why I will treat it as a real firearm.

Stress to your pupils that having the permit does not grant them any rights (other than to legally carry their firearm) that non-permit holders don't have.
It does not make you an honorary police officer.
It does not give you the right to use deadly force when it would be unlawful for anyone else to do so.
It does not give you the right to brandish your firearm.

My instructor was a career police officer and was a really cool guy. He got to a point in his slide show where he said, "The next slide shows all of the rights and privileges that comes along with you being licensed to carry." And then the next slide was blank.

Arkansas Paul said:

My instructor was a career police officer and was a really cool guy. He got to a point in his slide show where he said, "The next slide shows all of the rights and privileges that comes along with you being licensed to carry." And then the next slide was blank.

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I'm using that.

I like that a lot.

In full disclosure, I have never taught or even taken a CCW class of any kind and therefore have little to no knowledge about how they go.

With that said, when talking to other people who carry, and in my on personal experience there is to little information on what to do AFTER a defensive shooting. I had been carrying for years before I ever gave it a thought, and imo it's an important piece of information. It wouldn't take long to quickly go over the what's and why's of what should be done/expected.

I'm using that.

I like that a lot.

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Me too.
It is something simple and it really struck home.
I'll never forget it, and that is the point.

I have used real firearms (to me, "live" indicates "loaded") in Home Firearm Safety classes, to demonstrate how different actions function and to teach safe unloading. I use orange plastic snap caps to do both.

taliv said:

i assume that after all that firearm checking, you will NOT declare the firearm unloaded and then allow the muzzle to cover anyone, or put your finger on the trigger, etc.

if you go through all that checking drama to impress on your students that the gun is no longer dangerous, then i am 100% opposed to it.

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I feel like some negative presumptions are being made here.

The 'drama' takes about 5 extra seconds.

The students know that I take safety seriously and there is no way I can make a mistake.
It has been well received, especially with new shooters.

Nobody declares anything unloaded and the 4 rules are always observed. Even with the blue gun. I am not sure where you are getting off here inferring I would be unsafe.

In my classes I communicate expectations and no body gets surprised by what I am about to do.

I will keep doing it this way and just offered it up in case someone else sees value. Take it or leave it, fine by me.

I will not be assuming that anyone here would be unsafe unless the actually post something unsafe.

Just thought I would share.

In general I find that women are better students (especially in beginner classes). Guys tend to think that they are endowed with the natural ability to drive, shoot, and fornicate (which we know are all learned/taught behaviors) and sometimes it's difficult to break through that thought process.

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As an instructor, this has been my experience also.

We have a top level firearms instructor in my area. He has a long list of accreditations that make him qualified but what makes him a good instructor is that he is safe and entertaining. I have taken several of his classes and have noticed that he makes a point and then reinforces it with a personal story. He is very organized in his presentation utilizing audio, video, and props (blue guns and cutaway guns). He even utilizes some role playing for parts of his classes to get the audience involved. The day passes rather quickly in his classes because of this. Hope that helps.

taliv said:

sorry i didn't mean to imply you would be unsafe. i have no doubt you wouldn't allow anyone to be shot in your class.

my concern is that your students not take the wrong message. i.e. you say "treat guns like they're loaded" or "all guns are always loaded" but then what they see you do is have multiple people verify they're "unloaded" and the cognitive dissonance would ultimately make them behave in an unsafe way.

i.e. the message they learn is "if you really check and are sure it's unloaded, then the gun is safe"


edit to add:
how is handling a gun in a class any different than a crowded gun store or gun show? i mean, why do you need multiple people to check it?

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Yeah, I done got my jimmies rustled...

Your concern about the wrong message is a valid one. I am going to keep that in mind.

I don't NEED to do the two person check.
I do the two person check for a couple of reasons:

1. Students hear AND see AND experience that I take the safety aspect very seriously. They participate. I can say that I am safety conscious but showing them... Actions not words...
2. They get to show me how to check a firearm (after I have explained it) and I get to politely/cheerfully correct them for others to benefit (finger off the trigger, put your finger in the chamber, etc)
3. They see that I am not 'that guy' who doesn't think they can make a mistake.
4. I get to interact with students and keep things lively.

The difference between a crowded gun store and my classroom is really just a matter of confidence, control, and comfort.
Which, IMO, makes the difference between talking to a guy behind the counter and paying money for a course.

In my class, students feel confident that I am going over the top to achieve the utmost levels of safety (like I said, new shooters seem to appreciate this). And it doesn't cost me anything.

In my class, I am in control of the the class and the equipment and the students get to participate in that control.

In my class, students are comfortable with me demonstrating the proper grip with a real gun because of the above measures of control and safety.

So I guess you could say that it is a bit for drama, but also for making people feel specific way. Mainly, that they are in a place that cares about them, their safety, and their success with firearms.

In full disclosure, I have never taught or even taken a CCW class of any kind and therefore have little to no knowledge about how they go.

With that said, when talking to other people who carry, and in my on personal experience there is to little information on what to do AFTER a defensive shooting. I had been carrying for years before I ever gave it a thought, and imo it's an important piece of information. It wouldn't take long to quickly go over the what's and why's of what should be done/expected.

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Without trying to poke a hornets nest over this:

If you choose to cover this suggestion in class, please keep in mind that you're not an attorney (at least, I'm assuming you're not) and that even if you are, you're not THEIR attorney. Be careful not to cross the line on giving "legal advice". And be aware that any given bit of advice/recommendation you do choose to give is very likely to be heavily weighted based on the actual circumstances of any given incident.

I had thought THR had a stickie on this subject, but I can't find one.

At any rate...you might take a look through the various stickies anyway...lots of good info you can study and incorporate into your training.

I taught a handgun safety and marksmanship class in college. It was a popular idea where I got to spread my knowledge to over 200 people. Thanks to donations it was free of charge, we just asked people to pitch in to help buy ammo.

Being in a Consitutional carry state, the legal portion of my class started and stopped with only using a firearm if your life felt threatened. You aren't there to interpret the law. People in suits, and likely do not carry firearms, do enough of that.

Use a blue gun if possible. At least for awhile. My classes involved classroom and range days. Obviously the range days were more popular since that is when the ammo and targets came out. I never used a blue gun but whenever I did classroom instruction, no ammo was near the firearm being shown.

I did things differently. When I taught, I was armed. Weapon was loaded. I never unloaded and showed my weapon for demonstration. I wore it for class and only removed it when the class was over or I was shooting at a target. I made it clear the purpose that I was armed was to develop comfort around a loaded firearm.

I don't NEED to do the two person check.
I do the two person check for a couple of reasons:...

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When I do safety classes I make a point to overemphasize things in class. Safety can not be overemphasized too much and the more students hear about it/see you doing it, the more likely they are to retain the information.

To reinforce the idea of muzzle awareness I tape a 4 foot wood dowel to the side of a blue gun pistol. The dowel is painted emergency red. I have the students each take hold of it and move it around a little bit to get an idea of where they are pointing. They begin to understand that the red line is where the bullet goes too. By the end of the class everyone is much more aware of the pistol muzzle.

In regards to using real weapons vs blue guns, I much prefer to use the real thing. I base my classes of crawl, walk, run. With a blue gun or otherwise non functional firearm (like a BB gun replica for example) you run into differences between models. For example you will end up saying "on a real firearm you won't have this orange safety flag on the barrel." Or "there will be a safety right here." I used real guns in my courses for the simple reason of getting used to a real firearm from day one, not a replica you have to explain differences from. A far simpler reason was my course didn't have the funds to get fake guns, just the real ones.

I would hammer in the importance of gun handling safety and the fact that everytime you handle a gun there is a possibility of you or the gun having a "malfunction". NDs are far more likely than being attacked, so training should emphasize reducing that risk as much as possible with both habits and devices.

Law vs Marksmanship and Safety

I was surprised at the number of comments emphasizing safety and shooting skills. When I took the written test in Texas, the questions were all about the law. Texas does have a shooting qualification component, but the instructor gave NO instruction on shooting. He simply told us to go to the line, load the weapon, and fire on command.

I was surprised at the number of comments emphasizing safety and shooting skills. When I took the written test in Texas, the questions were all about the law.

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I think it depends a lot on your mindset around what a CCW class should be. Most of us (especially in the ST&T forum) spend a lot of time, money, and effort to seek out advanced training with professionals to make us better shooters and tacticians, and this is reflected in the recommendations that many of us made. For us, a CCW class is an opportunity to improve our skills, so that is why we commented on skills that we would like to see in a class.

There is also a valid argument that required CCW classes should be as easy as possible in order to allow people to get their permit quickly (after all, you shouldn't really NEED a permit to carry, so why should you need to take a class too?). This thought process leads to the instructor teaching to the test rather than teaching to a skill standard. It doesn't make people better skill-wise, but it does get them the permit.

It's the difference between teaching people how to pass a test or teaching people how to fight with their gun.

I'll also note that while I think the skill improvement based class is typically better, I would be hard pressed to tell a girl with a violent stalker that she should wait a month for the (likely more expensive) skills based class when there's a quicker/cheaper test based class taking place tomorrow. (But I would still recommend she get the more advanced training at a later date). It just depends on the situation.