Carrying Another's

Warp said:

Whoa there. Let's not go making that statement.

The general thing here would be that you can NOT transfer possession of a firearm across state lines without going through an FFL.

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In Federal rules, it isn't a "transfer". Possession isn't ownership, and "transfer" is a transfer of ownership.

You can ship a firearm to another state for your use. You can go to another state, loan your buddy your gun. You can leave your gun there, too. The GCA says that the loan of a firearm over state laws for "lawful sporting purposes" is okay. And it doesn't put a bunch of specifics on how you do that, so you can't get charged for the specifics of the loan.

Keep in mind that you are "loaning" a firearm when you hand it to someone to climb over a fence, let them try a few rounds at the range, put it in their trunk, etc. Or when you rent a machinegun while vacationing in Las Vegas. The GCA is rather sensible in making the difference between having a gun and owning a gun a pretty strong and obvious line.


When I moved out west, the rifle I left in my parent's basement did not turn them into criminals. And if Dad wanted to use it for deer hunting, that isn't a problem.

What is a problem is if you lend a buddy a gun for self defense over state lines, because that doesn't meet the criteria for sporting use. So if you were caught carrying an interstate loaned gun, that would be bad. If you shot a home invader with a loaned gun, you might be okay as long as the owner said that the loan was for sport.


That said, some states have specific prohibitions on all of that, but it is the usual suspects.

Come on now, discussing interstate gun loans and usage has nothing to do with the OP using his wife's gun. There is no reason for so many threads to turn into a pissing contest, especially on a question never asked.

We are supposed to be better than that...

Carrying someone else's gun would depend on state laws.

Using someone else's gun for SD or defense of someone else is a different issue altogether. Even in states with strict transfer laws I have never heard of anyone using someone else's gun for a valid SD shooting that was prosected. That includes family members, friends, etc. Prosecutors recognize exigent circumstances require someone to break the law in order to save innocent life.

Easy example. Homicide. If you kill someone who is trying to kill you its still homicide. However, the law recognizes this. Grounds for justifiable homicide are spelled out in the law.

ArchAngelCD said:

Come on now, discussing interstate gun loans and usage has nothing to do with the OP using his wife's gun. There is no reason for so many threads to turn into a pissing contest, especially on a question never asked.

We are supposed to be better than that...

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Its not a pissing contest. I provided some information about loaning guns, it caused some confusion so I clarified.


If you want to get down to brass tacks, the OP's wife isn't using a "loaned gun" if it is owned by the couple. They're married, they both own the gun.


Gun people generally are skittish about getting transfer laws wrong, so there is often a presumption of much greater regulation than actually exists, so they are often thinking there is a law when there isn't. "Is your gun properly registered?" But this isn't a big argument, just a better explanation about what the word "loan" actually means in GCA terms.

RX-79G said:

Its not a pissing contest. I provided some information about loaning guns, it caused some confusion so I clarified.


If you want to get down to brass tacks, the OP's wife isn't using a "loaned gun" if it is owned by the couple. They're married, they both own the gun.


Gun people generally are skittish about getting transfer laws wrong, so there is often a presumption of much greater regulation than actually exists, so they are often thinking there is a law when there isn't. "Is your gun properly registered?" But this isn't a big argument, just a better explanation about what the word "loan" actually means in GCA terms.

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I agree, that's why I'm not sure why the discussion moved to interstate gun transport and using none family members gun across state lines. All the guy wanted to know is, can he legally use the gun his wife bought.

I'm done here, I don't want to make the thread drift even worse than it already is.

RX-79G said:

In Federal rules, it isn't a "transfer". Possession isn't ownership, and "transfer" is a transfer of ownership.

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No. Please, no. Do not give people this advice.

The way it works is you cannot transfer possession of a firearm across state lines without an FFL

ArchAngelCD said:

Come on now, discussing interstate gun loans and usage has nothing to do with the OP using his wife's gun. There is no reason for so many threads to turn into a pissing contest, especially on a question never asked.

We are supposed to be better than that...

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For my part I am hoping to avoid any of us telling people they can commit federal firearms felonies

You can't just say "oh no it's okay that gun I transferred to him is still owned by me wink wink nod nod". Don't transfer possession of a firearm across state lines without going through an FFL.

The original post was about "carring another's pistol". Even if it was your spouse's pistol you may be liable for it's use. If your spouse has a ND which results in injury the pistols owner may be liable. If you have any property say a business or farm which is not joint property, you may lose it.
Imagine if your wife loans you her pistol, you have a ND or a bad shooting which results in a death, She may face charges as well. It's not right but it is possible. Every time a child finds a parents pistol and shoots a friend the parent is charged, and sued.
IMHO never loan a firearm for CC. Sell it legally (for $1 or whatever) with a bill of sale. BTW I am not a lawyer this is not legal advice just my thoughts.

tactikel said:

The original post was about "carring another's pistol". Even if it was your spouse's pistol you may be liable for it's use. If your spouse has a ND which results in injury the pistols owner may be liable. If you have any property say a business or farm which is not joint property, you may lose it.
Imagine if your wife loans you her pistol, you have a ND or a bad shooting which results in a death, She may face charges as well. It's not right but it is possible. Every time a child finds a parents pistol and shoots a friend the parent is charged, and sued.
IMHO never loan a firearm for CC. Sell it legally (for $1 or whatever) with a bill of sale. BTW I am not a lawyer this is not legal advice just my thoughts.

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What makes the pistol his and not his wife's??

Warp said:

No. Please, no. Do not give people this advice.

The way it works is you cannot transfer possession of a firearm across state lines without an FFL

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You don't know what you're talking about. A loan or rental isn't a transfer, it's a loan.

A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he or she or she does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law.

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https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/whom-may-unlicensed-person-transfer-firearms-under-gca

RX-79G said:

You don't know what you're talking about. A loan or rental isn't a transfer, it's a loan.



https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/whom-may-unlicensed-person-transfer-firearms-under-gca

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Sporting purposes is an extremely important part of the sentence you are quoting. Self defense is not a "sporting purpose". What you are quoting and referring to would be, example, you are hunting with a few people who reside in different states and/or are out of state, and you loan a firearm to another of the party for the hunt. That is what that is really about.


Also, direct quote from your own link

"Generally, for a person to lawfully transfer a firearm to an unlicensed person who resides out of State, the firearm must be shipped to a Federal firearms licensee (FFL) within the transferee’s State of residence. "


^Direct quote from ATF from your link


You really should stop giving advice that could lead to people committing federal firearm felonies.

Warp,


It is so damn frustrating posting stuff when people like you can't even be bothered to read or think before they are posting their denouncements. It's as if I hadn't already posted this:

You can ship a firearm to another state for your use. You can go to another state, loan your buddy your gun. You can leave your gun there, too. The GCA says that the loan of a firearm over state laws for "lawful sporting purposes" is okay. And it doesn't put a bunch of specifics on how you do that, so you can't get charged for the specifics of the loan.

Keep in mind that you are "loaning" a firearm when you hand it to someone to climb over a fence, let them try a few rounds at the range, put it in their trunk, etc. Or when you rent a machinegun while vacationing in Las Vegas. The GCA is rather sensible in making the difference between having a gun and owning a gun a pretty strong and obvious line.

Click to expand...

A loan for "lawful sporting purposes" is legal. Anyone who has ever hunted out of state or rented a range gun out of state immediately understands this law, because if merely holding someone else's gun away from your home state was a "transfer", everyone would be going to jail.


Some of the biggest enemies gun owners have are people like you, that are so zealously guarding "the law", but have no idea what the law actually is.

This thread is full of complete misunderstandings about the difference between a transfer, loan and communal property. Someone with their thinking hat on would start at the beginning and see if they could learn something instead of just posting more objections.


Alternately, if you want to object, you'll start posting links that show why the ATF links I posted are in error, and why all those gun ranges in NV are criminally "transferring" machineguns to out of state renters.

None of this has anything to do with a married couple sharing handguns. (And the contest goes on!)

RX-79G said:

This thread is full of complete misunderstandings about the difference between a transfer, loan and communal property.

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This is not an area to have "misunderstandings" because another word for misunderstanding is felony.


This started with:

RX-79G said:

Several of us answered the question specifically about VA. I used to live there and had a CCL, and there is no prohibition in state law about loaning a gun or in the CC laws about what gun you can use.


The subject of loaning your spouse a gun is a little strange since most things married people own are considered common property - they don't go through probate. And, as long as we aren't talking about a straw purchase, you can loan, sell or give your firearm to anyone who can legally own one in your state. And you can loan a gun to someone out of state.


So the question of who specifically owns the gun really isn't important, except in a few painful states.

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Just throwing in the phrase "and you can loan a gun to someone out of state" is dangerously unclear/unspecific and begging for a misunderstanding aka felonly.

There is no need to insult me because I want to be extra certain that anybody who reads this thread (which is a lot, lot more than just the OP) avoids transferring possession of a firearm across state lines in a felonious manner.

And long before you weighed in, I had very precisely spelled out the law.

Your objection seems to be that I didn't explain - I did. Or that people should believe everything they read on a gun forum - without checking the references I provided.


So you are saying loaning a firearm over state lines for sporting use is a felony, scaring people off from exercising their rights. Please provide the references to this opinion.

Otherwise, stop telling people they are breaking the law when they are not.

...no. Refer to my last post, particularly the part referencing and quoting post #22.

My post was both factually and practically correct.

I object to living like I have to provide lawyer warnings whenever I state a fact. If I say "A 15 year old can drive a car," that doesn't mean a 15 year old has carte blanche to drive without permit or an adult. And everyone else seems to understand that they may need to find out more before they act on any given thing they hear.

I am not your nanny. If someone reads that one line and decides that means they can mail a gun to a friend in CA for carry, that has nothing to do with me. That person is an idiot, and that isn't my fault that an idiot wouldn't read the law (or at least the rest of the thread) before acting.


You have gone from saying that I was wrong, to saying that I didn't spell it out, to saying I didn't spell it out in the first post I mention it in. It just sounds like you are objecting to object, rather than having a specific criticism aside from not holding your hand enough.

Stop with the bad lawyer act and being your brother's keeper. Anyone who wants to loan a gun can figure it out for themselves, but at least they aren't going to get shut down by someone like you that doesn't know what they are talking about.

RX-79G said:

My post was both factually and practically correct.

I object to living like I have to provide lawyer warnings whenever I state a fact. If I say "A 15 year old can drive a car," that doesn't mean a 15 year old has carte blanche to drive without permit or an adult. And everyone else seems to understand that they may need to find out more before they act on any given thing they hear.

I am not your nanny. If someone reads that one line and decides that means they can mail a gun to a friend in CA for carry, that has nothing to do with me. That person is an idiot, and that isn't my fault that an idiot wouldn't read the law (or at least the rest of the thread) before acting.


You have gone from saying that I was wrong, to saying that I didn't spell it out, to saying I didn't spell it out in the first post I mention it in. It just sounds like you are objecting to object, rather than having a specific criticism aside from not holding your hand enough.

Stop with the bad lawyer act and being your brother's keeper. Anyone who wants to loan a gun can figure it out for themselves, but at least they aren't going to get shut down by someone like you that doesn't know what they are talking about.

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I am doing my best to keep people from "misunderstanding", leading to commission of a felony.

Gun laws are not "common sense" and are not things that people just "know", like the age where one can typically get a driver license or buy/consume alcohol. Nuances and details matter, BIG TIME.

If your job is to clarify law, you are doing a terrible job of it, because you have consistently confused loaning and transferring.


It isn't prudent or conservative to misinform people about their rights or the law. That's what you are doing.


If you are concerned about people understanding the law, you'll go back and delete your mis-statements about loans being "transfers of possession." They aren't, and someone may read your incorrect opinions and act on that information.

I believe it is prudent to inform people on a gun board about gun laws. You seem to as well since you keep trying to do it lol

I have nothing incorrect to delete.

We have already linked an ATF statement on the topic, if people will read that WHOLE paragraph, they will know the basics and know them correctly.

You said that it wasn't legal to loan a firearm across state lines. Are you sticking to that?



Here's where your prudence is stupid: Local cops and deputies also read gun forums, and are not lawyers. One of them may read your baloney, and make an arrest based on your misunderstanding of the law. Unlike a citizen deciding to take a trip with a gun, a cop often has to make a fairly quick decision to act.

Is your misplaced prudence going to make someone else's night in jail okay?

I said this:

Warp said:

The general thing here would be that you can NOT transfer possession of a firearm across state lines without going through an FFL.

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The ATF says (bold mine)

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/whom-may-unlicensed-person-transfer-firearms-under-gca

"A person may transfer a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his or her State, provided the transferor does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the transferee is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. There may be State laws that regulate intrastate firearm transactions. A person considering transferring a firearm should contact his or her State Attorney General’s Office to inquire about the laws and possible State or local restrictions.

Generally, for a person to lawfully transfer a firearm to an unlicensed person who resides out of State, the firearm must be shipped to a Federal firearms licensee (FFL) within the transferee’s State of residence. The transferee may then receive the firearm from the FFL upon completion of an ATF Form 4473 and a NICS background check.

A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he or she or she does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. Another exception is provided for transfers of firearms to nonresidents to carry out a lawful bequest or acquisition by intestate succession. This exception would authorize the transfer of a firearm to a nonresident who inherits a firearm under the will of a decedent.

A person may transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C 922(a)(5) and 922(d); 27 CFR 478.30, 478.32]"


(self defense is not considered a sporting purpose)

So now you agree with me?

Can your wife carry your gun? Yes, of course. Can someone else? Yes. As long as they are legal to do so and have your permission. As far as "crossing state lines" goes, it generally depends on the laws of that particular state. I know that some states conceal carrly laws require you to carry your own registered gun. In most states that I am familiar with you would be fine. We are not talking transfer of possession, just borrowing. I know that if I were to borrow a friend's gun to take on a particular hunting trip out of state I generally would have nothing to worry about. Fact of the matter is that people do it all of the time. Typically you only deal with an ffl is when you are trying to ship or sell a firearm. Some states still allow private gun sales without the need of an ffl. Of course we are not talking about sales, crossing state lines, shipping firearms, or even hunting. We are talking about self defense carry of a licensed husband and wife. Fact is that you can carry her gun and she can carry yours period. No debate necessary.

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evidrine said:

Can your wife carry your gun? Yes, of course. Can someone else? Yes. As long as they are legal to do so and have your permission. As far as "crossing state lines" goes, it generally depends on the laws of that particular state. I know that some states conceal carrly laws require you to carry your own registered gun. In most states that I am familiar with you would be fine. We are not talking transfer of possession, just borrowing. I know that if I were to borrow a friend's gun to take on a particular hunting trip out of state I generally would have nothing to worry about. Fact of the matter is that people do it all of the time. Typically you only deal with an ffl is when you are trying to ship or sell a firearm. Some states still allow private gun sales without the need of an ffl. Of course we are not talking about sales, crossing state lines, shipping firearms, or even hunting. We are talking about self defense carry of a licensed husband and wife. Fact is that you can carry her gun and she can carry yours period. No debate necessary.

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Click to expand...

Taking somebody else's gun into your possession and going somewhere with it is taking possession of it. There is a temporary exception for sporting purposes. Self defense is not a sporting purpose. The inter-state part of this is a federal law, not state.

Actually you are very wrong. Transfer refers to changing ownership. Borrowing is perfectly legal if the lender and borrower can legally possess the firearm. I have included a few legal quotes as well as a link referring to interstate transport of firearms. It is a really good read if you are interested.
Loaning or Borrowing a Firearm



Firearms Act section [FA s.] 33: A person may lend a firearm only if (a) the person (i) has reasonable grounds to believe that the borrower holds a licence authorizing the borrower to possess that kind of firearm, and (ii) lends the borrower the registration certificate for the firearm...

Therefore, you may lend a firearm to a person with a POL, because he "holds a licence authorizing the borrower to possess that kind of firearm." You do not need to do a formal transfer of the firearm, because FA s. 21 says that "For the purposes of sections 22 to 32 (the transfer procedure sections), 'transfer' means sell, barter or give."

Criminal Code section [CC s.] 84(4)(b)(ii): "84(4) For the purposes of this Part, a person is the holder of... (b) a registration certificate for a firearm if... the person possesses the registration certificate with the permission of its lawful holder."

Therefore, the borrower is the "holder" of both a licence to possess that kind of firearm and a registration certificate for that particular firearm, so he is in fully legal possession of it.

You cannot legally lend someone a firearm unless you also lend him the registration certificate, so you cannot lend a firearm that you legally own under the provisions of CC s. 98 unless you have a registration certificate for it to loan with it.

FA s. 59: "An individual who holds an authorization to carry or an authorization to transport need not be the person to whom the registration certificate for the particular prohibited firearm or restricted firearm was issued."

Therefore, a borrower can get an authorization to carry or an authorization to transport a borrowed firearm. Often, he will not need an authorization to transport a borrowed handgun, because his existing ATT will cover it by language like, "all restricted firearms and prohibited handguns for which he holds registration certificates" [see CC s. 84(4)(b)(ii)].

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150101/guide-to-the-interstate-transportation

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