Carrying Another's

[RX-79G]

Taking somebody else's gun into your possession and going somewhere with it is taking possession of it.

No, it isn't.

You're going to need to prove this statement, since it is clear that loaning a firearm is legal, loans over state lines happen with legal businesses all the time and there is no language in the GCA or anywhere else that defines a limit to loans.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Again, this is getting totally ridiculous! The OP only asked if it was legal to use a gun his wife bought. As usual most of the 50+ three pages if posts don't address the question asked. I just don't get it, I really don't.

 

[RX-79G]

What is your concern? That the topic won't get the proper Dewey decimal filing? This is a discussion forum, not Wikipedia.

If you find thread drift so distressing, feel free to start a new thread.


And the reason this keeps going is because Warp keeps posting bad legal information.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

What is your concern? That the topic won't get the proper Dewey decimal filing? This is a discussion forum, not Wikipedia.

If you find thread drift so distressing, feel free to start a new thread.


And the reason this keeps going is because Warp keeps posting bad legal information.

You might want to take your own advice.

Another reading this might say the thread keeps going because you keep answering him. I guess it all depends on how you look at it.

Why would I want to start a different thread? I only suggested this thread stay on topic. You are the one that should start a new thread if you want to discuss interstate gun transport and transfer.

 

[RX-79G]

You do realize that you've added five off-topic posts to this thread objecting to off-topic posts?

 

[Warp]

Transfer refers to changing ownership.

Nope.

Possession.

 

[RX-79G]

Warp,

This is exactly what the law says:

No nonlicensee shall transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any other nonlicensee, who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides: Provided, That the provisions of this section shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

In other words, the prohibition on interstate handoffs of guns by non-FFLs doesn't apply to loans. So it doesn't matter what you want to call the act of handing someone a gun over state lines, if it is a loan for sporting purposes, the law doesn't apply.

That's the whole law. There aren't legal provisions or restrictions elsewhere for how the loan is carried out, length of time, nothing.


If I loan a gun to someone, has it changed possession? Yes. Because "possess" means "has".

Is that a "transfer". No, because the section says that loan isn't a transfer, gift, trade or delivery - all of which are changes of ownership. It says that a loan is something else, and that the section does not apply to loans. Transfers, like gifts and trades, are changes of ownership, loans are not.

 

[Warp]

Please see this question asked and answered in the Legal section

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=810346

Please see the link for everything, but the first two words of this response by Frank tell the story

Q: Can you loan a firearm to a resident of another state for carry/defense

Basically no.

 

[RX-79G]

Warp,

What is your problem?! I mentioned the part about "lawful sporting purposes" in posts 26, 34, 36 and 57, and you quoted me on all of them.

Not only that, I said in a post 4 days ago in post #26:

What is a problem is if you lend a buddy a gun for self defense over state lines, because that doesn't meet the criteria for sporting use. So if you were caught carrying an interstate loaned gun, that would be bad. If you shot a home invader with a loaned gun, you might be okay as long as the owner said that the loan was for sport.

What game are you playing? The argument you have been making is that you can't loan a gun at all, because it is a "transfer".


Can you not read and remember, or are you just trolling?

 

[Warp]

My game is correcting false or incomplete statements.

Example:

Taking somebody else's gun into your possession and going somewhere with it is taking possession of it. There is a temporary exception for sporting purposes. Self defense is not a sporting purpose. The inter-state part of this is a federal law, not state.

 

[RX-79G]

Which you posted in thread on post #49, after I already had clarified that in post #26.


So, you're just confused? Okay.

 

[Warp]

Which you posted in thread on post #49, after I already had clarified that in post #26.


So, you're just confused? Okay.

As with the others, post #26 is wrong. Which is the trend here

In Federal rules, it isn't a "transfer". Possession isn't ownership, and "transfer" is a transfer of ownership.

 

[RX-79G]

Post 57 already answered this.

 

[Warp]

It seems everything has been answered already then, in which case it's a good time to leave it as it is

 

[RX-79G]

It hasn't just been answered already, it has been answered multiple times for you on two separate threads. You've been ridiculous.

 

[Warp]

:banghead:

 

[Frank Ettin]

RX-79G has posted a lot of incorrect information in this thread. I'm going to try to correct some of that:

1. Post 22:

   ...The subject of loaning your spouse a gun is a little strange since most things married people own are considered common property - they don't go through probate....

   That fundamentally misstates the law:
   
   
   • Only nine States are community property states. Under common law marital property principles it can be a question of fact whether a particular item is jointly owned or individually loaned. Even under community property principles depending on the exact circumstances a particular item may be the separate property of one spounce.
     
     
   • Also, the term probate refers to the judicial process for the settlement of a decedent's estate when he has died with a will. The process applies even if it turns out that the sole beneficiary of the estate is the spouse. Among other things probate involves qualifying an executor to act as the person representative of the decedent to handle the winding up of his affairs, the collection of debts owed to the estate, the payment of debts of the estate, and the management of the assets of the decedent until all other matters have been taken care of and the estate is ready to be distributed to the beneficiary or beneficiaries under the will.
   
   
2. Post 22:

   ....you can loan, sell or give your firearm to anyone who can legally own one in your state. And you can loan a gun to someone out of state....

   That is such an oversimplification that it is wrong and misleading:
   
   
   • Whether, how, or under what circumstances you can loan, sell, or give a gun to someone who is a resident of your State (and can legally own one) depends on the laws of your State. In some States there are limitation as to when and to whom one may loan a gun. In some States there are procedures (e. g., a background check through an FFL) required to loan (under some circumstances), sell, or give a gun to someone.
     
     
   • With regard to interstate loans, as will be discussed in depth later an interstate loan is, under the Gun Control Act of 1968, a transfer subject to various limitations.
   
   
3. Post 26:

   Whoa there. Let's not go making that statement.
   
   The general thing here would be that you can NOT transfer possession of a firearm across state lines without going through an FFL.

   In Federal rules, it isn't a "transfer". Possession isn't ownership, and "transfer" is a transfer of ownership....

   RX-79G doesn't cite any legal authority for his statement, and he is wrong.
   
   The federal laws relating to the transfer of a gun from a resident of one State to a resident of another (i. e., the Gun Control Act of 1968 or GCA68) are about physical possession, not ownership. GCA68 was Congress' responding to enormous public pressure after the assassinations by gunfire of three wildly popular public figures -- JFK, RFK and MLK. The law was intended to regulate and control the interstate transfer of firearms. It was structured so that to the extent reasonably possible any transfer of possession of a gun from a resident of one State to a resident of another would have to go through an FFL.
   
   In the context of the concerns intended to be address by Congress through GCA68, it's possession and not ownership that matters. Someone who has a gun in his possession can use it, whether or not he has legal title to it.
   
   The word "transfer" means what it means; and it absolutely is not limited to a change in ownership. It has to do with a change of possession, and possession is about physical control, not legal title.
   
   The common definitions of "possession" and "transfer" will generally be used by a court in applying the statutes as outlined in Perrin v. United States, 444 U.S. 37 (United States Supreme Court, 1979), at 42:

   ...A fundamental canon of statutory construction is that, unless otherwise defined, words will be interpreted as taking their ordinary, contemporary, common meaning...

   
   
   • In general, any transfer of a firearm from a resident of one State to a resident of another must go through an FFL who will follow all usual formalities (e. g., completion of the 4473). There are a few limited, narrow, specific exceptions: if you have an appropriate federal firearms license; inheritance by will or intestate succession; or a loan (subject to a number of limitations which will be discussed in more detail below).
     
     
   • The applicable federal statutes are: 18 USC 922(a)(3); 18 USC 922(a)(5); and 18 USC 922 (b)(3). The full texts of those statutes may be found here.
     
     
   • The federal laws I've cited are about possession, not necessarily ownership.
     
     
     • Possession means:

       1 a : the act of having or taking into control...

       
       
     • Transfer is about possession, not ownership.
       
       Some definitions of "transfer" (emphasis added):
       
       
       • http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/transfer:

         ...Transfer encompasses the sale and every other method, direct or indirect, of (1) disposing of property or an interest therein or possession thereof;...

         
         
       • http://www.thefreedictionary.com/transferred:

         2. Law To make over the possession or legal title of; convey.

       • http://law.yourdictionary.com/transfer:

         Any and every method of removing something from one person or place to another; specifically, the handing over of possession or control of assets or title. ...

       
       
     • Let's look at the statutes:
       
       
       • 18 USC 922(a)(3), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:

         (a) It shall be unlawful—
         ...
         
         (3) for any person, ... to transport into or receive in the State where he resides ...any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State,...

         
         
       • And 18 USC 922(a)(5), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:

         (a) It shall be unlawful—
         ...
         
         (5) for any person ... to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person ...who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the transferor resides..;

       
       
     • Note carefully the words of those statutes. Words, like "transport", "receive", "obtained", "transfer", "give", "transport", and "deliver" are not necessarily words of ownership. They include physical possession.
     
     
   • Note that violations of federal law regarding interstate transfers are punishable by up to five years in federal prison and/or a fine; and since the crime is a felony one will lose his gun rights for the rest of his life.
   
   
4. Post 26:

   ...The GCA is rather sensible in making the difference between having a gun and owning a gun a pretty strong and obvious line...

   RX-79G doesn't tell us exactly how or where the GCA makes that distinction. As discussed above, the GCA does not.
   
   Indeed, the GCA very clearly applies to all transfers of possession -- not just ownership. As noted above the words of the GCA, like "transport", "receive", "obtained", "transfer", "give", "transport", and "deliver", refer to physical possession, not ownership.
   
   And let's also look specifically at the language of the GCA regarding the loaning of a gun:
   
   
   • 18 USC 922(a)(3), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:

     (a) It shall be unlawful—
     ...
     
     (3) for any person, ... to transport into or receive in the State where he resides ...any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State,...

     
     
   • And 18 USC 922(a)(5), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:

     (a) It shall be unlawful—
     ...
     
     (5) for any person ... to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person ...who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
     
     

     (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest ..., and
     
     (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;​

     ..

     
     
   • So under federal law a resident of one State may loan a gun to a resident of another State, but only temporarily and only for a lawful sporting purpose.
     
     
     • Temporary means:

       : continuing for a limited amount of time : not permanent
       
       : intended to be used for a limited amount of time

       
       
     • Sporting means (in this context):

       ...of, relating to, used, or suitable for sport...

       
       
     • Purpose means (in this context):

       : the reason why something is done or used : the aim or intention of something

     
     
   • So a court is likely to look at the "temporary loan for a lawful sporting purpose" exception to the prohibition on interstate transfers to apply when a gun is loaned so that the person it's been loaned to can engage in a specific sporting activity (i. e., a hunt, a competition, etc.) of limited duration. "Temporary" would refer to the duration of that activity. Such an interpretation would be consistent with the common meanings of the words used in the statutes and the underlying purpose (controlling interstate transfers of firearms) of GCA68.
     
     
   • And while you may go to another State where (under 18 USC 922(a)(5)) a friend may loan you a gun to, for example, go target shooting together, or an outfitter may rent you a gun for a guided hunt, if you were to take the gun back to your home State with you, you would be violating 18 USC 922(a)(3), which has no applicable "loan" exception. Since there is no applicable loan" exception in 18 USC 922(a)(3), a loan of a firearm may not cross state lines to the borrower's State of residence.
     
     
   • So under certain, specified circumstances (temporarily, for lawful sporting purposes, and not taken back to his home State by the person to whom it was loaned) a loan of a firearm is a narrow exception to the general rule that any transfer of a gun from a resident of one State to a resident of another must go through an FFL. So --
     
     
     • A loan of a gun from a resident of one State to a resident of another under different circumstances is an interstate transfer subject to the GCA; and
       
       
     • Therefore, a loan is a transfer of a firearm covered by the GCA.
   
   
5. Post 34:

   No. Please, no. Do not give people this advice.
   
   The way it works is you cannot transfer possession of a firearm across state lines without an FFL

   You don't know what you're talking about. A loan or rental isn't a transfer, it's a loan...

   As discussed above, a loan or rental by a resident of one State to a resident of another is a transfer within the GCA. RX-79G doesn't know what he is talking about.
   
   
6. Post 43:

   ...This thread is full of complete misunderstandings about the difference between a transfer, loan and communal property. Someone with their thinking hat on would start at the beginning and see if they could learn something instead of just posting more objections....

   Yes, and all of that misunderstanding is the result of RX-79G's ignorance.
   
   
7. Post 43:

   ...It isn't prudent or conservative to misinform people about their rights or the law....

   Which is why I'm concerned about the nonsense that RX-79G has been posting.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Thanks for clearing that up for us Frank, even though the discussion has derailed a bit. It's always good to get misinformation sorted out.


However, I'd love to hear your opinion on my original question. Just a couple who hypothetically might carry each others firearms. Nothing to do with interstate anything.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Thanks for clearing that up for us Frank, even though the discussion has derailed a bit. It's always good to get misinformation sorted out.


However, I'd love to hear your opinion on my original question. Just a couple who hypothetically might carry each others firearms. Nothing to do with interstate anything.

Here in PA our gun laws are posted on the Attorney General's web site. I highly suggest you find out for real what the laws are in your State from a reputable source, not people on an Internet forum, no matter how well meaning they are. If you can't find it on your State's AG site contact an attorney in your area and ask them. The NRA can provide the names of gun friendly attorneys in your area. Good luck and be safe.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...I'd love to hear your opinion on my original question. Just a couple who hypothetically might carry each others firearms. Nothing to do with interstate anything.

By all means, let's take the novel approach in this thread of trying to actually answer your question. And, as is so often the very unsatisfying case, the answer depends on state law.

There are basically two issues under state law: (1) state license to carry LTC) rules; and (2) state firearms transfer rules.

In a few States the LTC specifies, by make, model and serial number, the gun or guns one is authorized to carry. I know that's the way it's done in California, and I think New York might be that way as well. In a State like that it would be a violation of the carry laws to carry a gun not listed on one's LTC. I don't know, however, whether an issuing agency would, in such a State, be willing to list a spouse's gun on one's LTC.

As to the other issue, we know now that a loan is a transfer. Therefore, letting a spouse use your gun would be subject to whatever transfer rules apply in your State.

In most States a no formalities are required for a private transfer. Therefore letting a spouse use your gun would be a non-issue (of course assuming that the spouse is not prohibited from possessing a gun).

Some States do require formalities for private transfers. However, as far as I know the transfer laws of such States provide varying sorts of exemptions and exceptions for short term loans or transfers between family members. Unfortunately, the terms and conditions of those exceptions and exemptions differ state-to-state.

The trick in States with transfer requirements will be to understand the terms and conditions for any applicable exceptions or exemptions. I suspect that it would not be difficult to manage letting a spouse use your gun in a way that would satisfy the terms and conditions for any applicable exceptions or exemptions.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

By all means, let's take the novel approach in this thread of trying to actually answer your question. And, as is so often the very unsatisfying case, the answer depends on state law.

There are basically two issues under state law: (1) state license to carry LTC) rules; and (2) state firearms transfer rules.

In a few States the LTC specifies, by make, model and serial number, the gun or guns one is authorized to carry. I know that's the way it's done in California, and I think New York might be that way as well. In a State like that it would be a violation of the carry laws to carry a gun not listed on one's LTC. I don't know, however, whether an issuing agency would, in such a State, be willing to list a spouse's gun on one's LTC.

As to the other issue, we know now that a loan is a transfer. Therefore, letting a spouse use your gun would be subject to whatever transfer rules apply in your State.

In most States a no formalities are required for a private transfer. Therefore letting a spouse use your gun would be a non-issue (of course assuming that the spouse is not prohibited from possessing a gun).

Some States do require formalities for private transfers. However, as far as I know the transfer laws of such States provide varying sorts of exemptions and exceptions for short term loans or transfers between family members. Unfortunately, the terms and conditions of those exceptions and exemptions differ state-to-state.

The trick in States with transfer requirements will be to understand the terms and conditions for any applicable exceptions or exemptions. I suspect that it would not be difficult to manage letting a spouse use your gun in a way that would satisfy the terms and conditions for any applicable exceptions or exemptions.

Thank you sir, I appreciate the response.

I haven't found anything on hangunlaw.us that covers this for VA, unless I over looked something. That's usually my go to source.

It seems I'll have to dig a little deeper to find out my states specifics on the matter.