Local teen killed cleaning gun

If the teen was alone I would think charges could be leaving a firearm accessible to a minor.
Illegal at least in Wisconsin.

Stupid does happen..... I have had one ND in my life. I racked the slide observed an empty chamber, dropped the slide and then dropped the mag....... (see the problem here) pointed it in a safe direction and pulled the trigger. BAM right though the floor. Like I said, stupid does happen. Never had another and a VERY EXPENSIVE lesson, learned for about 300 bucks to fix the floor and about 2 years of my wife on my ass (she's a gun person also). I feel horrible for the family, but not all cleaning accidents are suicides some are just stupid or bad training/bad handling.

vito said:

the reality is that people do really get killed or hurt when a supposedly unloaded gun is actually loaded and carelessly fired.

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Along that same line...I once heard it said that the loudest gun in the world is the one you thought was unloaded.

gspn said:

Along that same line...I once heard it said that the loudest gun in the world is the one you thought was unloaded.

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I heard it as the two loudest sounds are the BANG of an unloaded gun and the CLICK of a loaded one.

I have experienced both. Fortunately all they cost me was ringing ears in the first case and a nice doe in the second.

It is physically impossible to clean a loaded gun. It is possible and very common to mishandle a loaded gun. All guns should always be handled as if they were loaded. When I worked on guns I learned how to handle a gun in front of a customer and no matter where they were standing or where I was standing I could turn the gun over and show them any part of it but NEVER swing the muzzle on them or anyone else in the area. Even if a gun was partially disassembled the muzzle was NEVER pointed at them or anyone else. And most people never even noticed that I was doing this. Working gunshows was the most annoying job I ever worked - EVERYBODY in the building was swinging muzzles all over the place and laughing and having a good time. One time a guy was shot at a show I was working at with a .223 rifle some goofball was swinging around. The sudden dead silence after the shot was incredibly "loud". Several times someone would fire a gun that "they didn't think was loaded" (fortunately no one was hit) People are, for the most part, really dumb and pay no attention to what they are doing. That's why we have so many people driving around staring at their cell phones. They don't think. They just do whatever they want and don't care. Anytime you pick up a gun there should be only ONE thought in the front of your mind - where is the muzzle pointing? ALL THE TIME. You don't get a second chance on this.

jlpskydive:
At least you followed all of the Most critical safety rules. That's pretty good that your habitual Actions prepared you for something to be overlooked.

I would rather have somebody like you by my side, any day --or behind me-- than most other gun owners who don't plan for a mistake to be made. No exaggeration here, at all.

Such a sad story. Early training in weapon handling is so important. My oldest son was visiting (with his girlfriend who is a PA) in the home of a doctor. The doctor was entertaining a group of the male visitors by showing them his new shotgun. When the shotgun was handed to my son, he was the only one that checked to see if it was loaded and drew praise from the doctor for this gesture. Needless to say I was very proud of my son when he told me about this.

Seems like the most critical mistake on semi-auto's is NOT racking the slide after dropping, the magazine. A lot of accidental shootings happen this way.

Not far from here last summer, a father shot his son in the stomach by making this very mistake. Drop the magazine, "oh its unloaded", then "bang".

And dropping the magazine and then believing the gun was the result of the introduction of magazine disconnect safeties. "Well, this gun works like this, SO all guns must work like that." Which pretty much proves you can never build any idiot proof device and hand it to anyone. People must be thought to "think" instead of "assume" or "guess". People also need to be taught to play the "what if" game. Milt1, I have never met your son but I am proud of him also. Kudos to both of you guys.

200Apples said:

Another tragedy which could have been avoided with proper gun handling training ...

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Even with training, some folks will insist on repeating the same stupid behaviors ...

For a few years in the latter half of the '70s I worked graveyard shift at a beachfront hotel. One of my carry guns was a Colt Combat Commander that I carried in Condition 1 (a.k.a., Cocked & Locked). Each morning, prior to leaving work, I would put the pistol in my desk drawer and head for the can to wash & dry my hands prior to carefully lowering the hammer on the chambered round and placing it back in my briefcase.

One morning as I re-entered the Front Office after washing my hands, I heard a snapping sound and an expression of surprise. I saw my buddy (call him Bill ... a Vietnam vet) with my pistol in his hands and looking a bit shaken.

It turned out that his granddaddy had shown him how to (barely) slow the drop of a 1911 hammer with his thumb ... and that is what he was doing when he found the hammer spring tension to be more than he expected ...

... the snapping sound was the hammer bottoming out.

Once I realized what had happened, I relieved him of the pistol, pointed it down in a safe direction, dropped the mag and cleared the chamber ... the chambered cartridge sported a heavy dimple in the center.

I pulled him aside and quietly read him the riot act, explaining just how stupid that episode was (he confessed to having once put a bullet into a floor doing the same thing) ... and requesting that he never touch any of my carry guns.

Later that year, on a quiet Sunday afternoon he was in the Living Room of the house he rented with the accountant at work, a mutual friend of ours. He was cleaning the PPK/s that I had sold him and, at the end, did the same stupid thing ...

... but this time the pistol FIRED.

Apparently, the roommate never moved his newspaper, because he was expecting "Bill" to someday touch-off a blank in order to startle him.

He thought it was a "joke" until "Bill" jumped up from the sofa, extremely rattled, ran to the window and pulled back the curtain .... and there was a bullet hole in the glass.

Thanks Drail, I appreciate your kind words. I want to add that whenever I see a post in one of the Forums requesting input on what type of handgun one should buy for a family member, relative or whatever, I always recommend a revolver if the person receiving the handgun is a newbie to any type of shooting. And I always state my reason for this and it's just what has been mentioned above regarding semi-auto's where people drop the mag and start thinking the pistol is now fangless. I've seen so many incidents in gun shops where an untrained clerk is selling a semi-auto to a couple that you just sense is the wrong handgun for them. I thank God that there aren't more accidents than there are.

GBExpat

Even with training, some folks will insist on repeating the same stupid behaviors ...

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Sheeesh. That's quite a story. Thanks for the reminder. I can take things for granted... case in point:

There are two 1911s I keep loaded and in Condition 1 in my safe. These two pistols are often unloaded, cleared, stashed in a locked case and taken to the range... shot, cleared, stashed again, locked, and brought home, cleared again, cleaned, loaded into Condition 1, thumb safety engaged, and put back on the top shelf of the safe.

There are very, very few people I will take to my safe; we'll have had to be friends for some time, and they also have to be fellow shooters. One guy likes his big, heavy milsurp rifles so I showed him a 20" Browning (Miroku-made Winchester clone) Model 1892 in .44 Magnum, unloaded, and cleared (because all guns are always loaded). I let him mount the rifle. He was surprised at the slim profile and the light weight... and after I took the rifle back from his hand he without warning grabbed one of the 1911s off the top shelf.

I had to firmly direct him to please and immediately return the gun to the shelf and allow me to clear it and any other weapon he'd like to handle.

Needless to say I have changed my protocol when I might have a Safe Opening for someone I think I can trust... but some guys can still surprise you. I was a fool to open a safe, containing a loaded weapon within easy reach, in the presence of another person other than my wife or my son.

Now, we are told again and again to never store a loaded gun in a locked container or safe... but an unloaded gun is slow to service. As the civilian said (forgive me if I can't remember the anecdote exactly) when he noticed the cocked hammer in the holster of the cop wearing a 1911 in Condition 1, "That looks dangerous!". The cop replied, "I should hope so."

[QUOTE="herrwalther, post: 10440758, member: 205444]
I know this is one of "the rules" but I don't agree with it. If firearms were treated as if they were always loaded, no cleaning would ever be done. All firearms are always loaded until you are completely sure they are not. Splitting hairs I know.[/QUOTE]


See I disagree. Having the rule be "every/always" instills alertness.

If you are thinking "every/always" you will never give the benefit of the doubt.

Obviously while cleaning it is disassembled and unable to be fired. My Kahr always scares me when field stripping because even though I know there is nothing chambered, disassembly requires me to put my finger on the trigger when I'm not ready to shoot AND since its mostly at home, I have to point it at stuff I don't want destroyed....

I had an accidental discharge with a .22 rifle when I was about 12. Learned my lesson. Never had another experience like that and I intend to make sure I never will. One has to be an absolute "nut" about the discipline of safety.

Sorry for the young man and his family, very sad indeed.

Local teen age boy did the same thing a few years back in my small town..... on Mother's Day.

Very sad. Family was devastated.

Cannibul said:

Many reported deaths "while cleaning" are actually suicides.

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My suspicion has always been that someone asks the family if they want to publish that it was a suicide, and if not, it turns into a "cleaning accident".

ford8nr said:

If the teen was alone I would think charges could be leaving a firearm accessible to a minor.
Illegal at least in Wisconsin.

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How does that work with the hunting regs there? Far as I was able to determine it's legal for people 16 years old and up to hunt alone. Am I incorrect?

bearcreek, you are correct, if they have a hunters safety card.
The youth in the story was 13.
Not sure what type of gun but if a handgun that's another problem.

As for Wisconsin laws about teens with guns...............pfffft.
How many get blasted up there in spite of the laws?

I had 3 rifles and 2 handguns in my bedroom, ammo too, at age 12. None ever loaded though.
Hunting and target stuff.

Pops had a Colt 1911 loaded on his nightstand. Knew how to use it if I had to, even as a kid.

Never understood the cleaning a loaded gun.

How a rifle remains loaded after the gun is used at the range, or a hunting trip always puzzled me.

Unless somebody often tests how a new round chambers at home, or inserts a loaded magazine After they are done for the day.

ford8nr said:

If the teen was alone I would think charges could be leaving a firearm accessible to a minor.
Illegal at least in Wisconsin.

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The news report was from Indiana.

It is physically impossible to clean a loaded gun. It is possible and very common to mishandle a loaded gun.

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You could if you were wiping it with a rag the same way Hillary wipes her email server...

Does anyone have a link to an article that mentions cleaning? I was going to use it as a reference but all I can find are "accident" articles.