Bigger perspective on CCW gun

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Tirod

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While we do choose a CCW gun based on some interesting personal choices, one thing does need to be sorted out first. I came to this thinking about what the definition of a "combat" handgun would be and it boiled down to if you're pressing the trigger - it's combat to you.

They are all combat handguns from that perspective. Type of action has little to do with it.

What can and does separate them is something else - do you go looking to engage in shooting with another human being, or is it carried to respond to someone who may have selected you to be a victim.

The first circumstances are all about hunting down and engaging another party. The second that you are responding to being hunted down. The first is combat, the second is self defense.

But in discussions about "Which gun should I carry?" we see models from both. There are a lot of CCW who carry combat oriented firearms. On the other hand, I don't see combat oriented organizations who issue self defense guns so much - how many .32 snubbies are still issue? I make that point because it's not as easy to see for some. Reversing the perspective might make it clearer.

So, if we aren't issuing Combat Master .32 Colts in coyote cerakote, why choose a double stack double action with barrel over 4"? I see it happening a lot - plenty of full sized 1911 fans carry. But are those really handguns for self defense against a predator?

Not arguing any gun is better than no gun. The point is that if you are hunting predators, you pick enough gun plus an ample amount extra because you don't accept the odds working against you on a two way range.

On the other side, do you need to lug around 19 rounds and attempt to conceal a Commander sized gun when most of the time we read it takes less than three shots - if any - to resolve a confrontation in self defense.

What I see is that the very conservative trend in self defense is to accept and use every little edge to increase the odds against an aggressor. OK - the accelerated trend will then take us to carrying an AR Pistol in .458 Socom with binary trigger. But somewhere along the line, common sense does intrude and we are far from doing that.

No, a self defense firearm can be much less and still considered sufficient.

Let's look at the contrasting conditions:

Being the hunter, you may encounter multiple targets and want to exploit the bounty of your fortune. Being hunted, you have one predator and flight may be your better response.

Hunter, you prefer to engage at longer distances. Hunted, you might find distance to be too close. Barrel lengths are involved here, as is concealability.

Hunter, you prefer accurate and precise sighting, hunted, up close and personal means almost point blank engagements at contact distances.

With those and other comparisons we could come up with, it should become clear, a duty gun is more oriented to combat, for a hunter, and a self defense gun is meant for the hunted, who is not running to the sound of gunfire, but maneuvering in a retrograde manner. Often with family in tow. Not many use their wife and kids as cover in a shootout.

The question "What guns should I carry for CCW?" should now be somewhat clearer for those who are considering it. At one extreme we have military and duty grade full sized double stack double action firearms suitable for a 20 year fleet service life, with annual qualifications, monthly practice, and daily carry exposed in holsters. On the other hand we have single stack guns, possible single action, which may be shot a few times a year for familiarization but not always as a primary range gun, which have less barrel length, are overall much smaller, might be carried deep concealed, and some which may never see sunlight for months at a time.

One type of firearm and it's use are not necessarily the best for the other job.
 
I agree.
My current carry gun is purely for defense. Last ditch self preservation tool.
This little .380 isn't even appealing to me. It is not typically a gun that i would have any interest in buying if it weren't so well suited for what I do with it. It is small, light, accurate, and reliable.
I don't like it's shape, but it conceals easily.
I don't like polymer, but it's light.
I don't like the sights, but they don't snag.
It's cheap, but a nicer gun gets beat up in everyday use.
I keep a far more formidable weapon in my vehicle in case my situation changes drastically for the worse.at that point my little .380 becomes a backup.
 
My current carry gun, Glock 43, has been a choice based on a distillation of this criteria. What gun will I ALWAYS carry without reservation because it's comfortable and will always be on my belt. Choosing a larger "combat" pistol that I pick and choose when I wear it, (Glock 23) leaves me playing roulette as to what situations I will be armed. If I am armed 100%, a smaller, lighter, "lesser" gun is sufficient. When I head to town, I add an extra mag.
 
There are a lot of CCW who carry combat oriented firearms.

That's odd, I would have said almost exactly the opposite: If I was going hunting for someone, I'd choose a small caliber, very quiet, gun that I would only expect to use, probably just once, under very specific circumstances. Preferably with utter surprise and extremely close-up. I will only need one shot, but would want a follow-up round available. A .32 or .380 would be fine. Even a .22 would do the trick.

If I'm fighting for my life, surprised, at a range and circumstance set by the other guy, I want a MUCH easier to use firearm that gives me the best possible power and capacity. A 1911 is a very good defensive handgun, and so is a Glock. Good power, good capacity, good size, amenable to ease of hitting what one's aiming at very quickly. Durable and rugged to survive life in a holster, and endless hours of training and practice to make me capable of defending myself with that weapon.

One type of firearm and it's use are not necessarily the best for the other job.
The distinction is without clear meaning, though. No military issues sidearms as a primary "combat" arm, and they often don't bother to issue them at all to the average soldier. They are always "defensive" in nature. If your job is to go out into combat and engage the enemy and you are issued a handgun of any description with which to do it, you need to reconsider your career choices.

But that Glock, or 1911, or M&P, or Beretta M9, or whatever, sure can bring a lot of aid if you are attacked and must defend yourself.

As you said, if you are attacked, you are in combat. Have the best possible tool with you that you can and will actually carry.



(And no, an AR pistol in .458 Socom is not the direction this inevitably heads, because you're not as well defended with that weapon as you would be with a duty sized sidearm in 9mm, .40, or .45. The AR pistol would be inadequate because of it's slowness on target, difficulty in aiming quickly or well, slow recovery and transition times, and secondarily, the practical difficulty in carrying it at all.)
 
Unless what I'm wearing does not allow me to carry IWB, my carry gun has a minimum of 10 rounds, and usually 15. One of the key differences between being the hunter and hunted is that the hunted, or victim, does not get to choose the circumstances under which they'll be attacked where the hunter, or criminal is making that decision. Where, when and how many attackers are decided by the attacker. We live in a safe part of the Chicago area, but it wasn't that long ago that someone was shot in a robbery attempt a few blocks from us. There were 4 attackers in the car, and when these crimes occur this number of attackers is not uncommon. The difference between carrying a single stack gun IWB versus a double stack is negligible, and I see no downside to doing so.
 
While we do choose a CCW gun based on some interesting personal choices, one thing does need to be sorted out first. I came to this thinking about what the definition of a "combat" handgun would be and it boiled down to if you're pressing the trigger - it's combat to you.

They are all combat handguns from that perspective. Type of action has little to do with it.

What can and does separate them is something else - do you go looking to engage in shooting with another human being, or is it carried to respond to someone who may have selected you to be a victim.

The first circumstances are all about hunting down and engaging another party. The second that you are responding to being hunted down. The first is combat, the second is self defense.

But in discussions about "Which gun should I carry?" we see models from both. There are a lot of CCW who carry combat oriented firearms. On the other hand, I don't see combat oriented organizations who issue self defense guns so much - how many .32 snubbies are still issue? I make that point because it's not as easy to see for some. Reversing the perspective might make it clearer.

So, if we aren't issuing Combat Master .32 Colts in coyote cerakote, why choose a double stack double action with barrel over 4"? I see it happening a lot - plenty of full sized 1911 fans carry. But are those really handguns for self defense against a predator?

Not arguing any gun is better than no gun. The point is that if you are hunting predators, you pick enough gun plus an ample amount extra because you don't accept the odds working against you on a two way range.

On the other side, do you need to lug around 19 rounds and attempt to conceal a Commander sized gun when most of the time we read it takes less than three shots - if any - to resolve a confrontation in self defense.

What I see is that the very conservative trend in self defense is to accept and use every little edge to increase the odds against an aggressor. OK - the accelerated trend will then take us to carrying an AR Pistol in .458 Socom with binary trigger. But somewhere along the line, common sense does intrude and we are far from doing that.

No, a self defense firearm can be much less and still considered sufficient.

Let's look at the contrasting conditions:

Being the hunter, you may encounter multiple targets and want to exploit the bounty of your fortune. Being hunted, you have one predator and flight may be your better response.

Hunter, you prefer to engage at longer distances. Hunted, you might find distance to be too close. Barrel lengths are involved here, as is concealability.

Hunter, you prefer accurate and precise sighting, hunted, up close and personal means almost point blank engagements at contact distances.

With those and other comparisons we could come up with, it should become clear, a duty gun is more oriented to combat, for a hunter, and a self defense gun is meant for the hunted, who is not running to the sound of gunfire, but maneuvering in a retrograde manner. Often with family in tow. Not many use their wife and kids as cover in a shootout.

The question "What guns should I carry for CCW?" should now be somewhat clearer for those who are considering it. At one extreme we have military and duty grade full sized double stack double action firearms suitable for a 20 year fleet service life, with annual qualifications, monthly practice, and daily carry exposed in holsters. On the other hand we have single stack guns, possible single action, which may be shot a few times a year for familiarization but not always as a primary range gun, which have less barrel length, are overall much smaller, might be carried deep concealed, and some which may never see sunlight for months at a time.

One type of firearm and it's use are not necessarily the best for the other job.
A lot of assumptions in this that I think are wrong. First of all, I worry about dogs about as much as a mugger or whatever. I've come very close to having to kill two large dogs in separate incidents while on early morning walks.

I really don't think there are that many people carrying full size guns around. Most people get tired of the size, weight and inconvenience of concealing it. I would say a G19 is about the largest regularly carried hand gun which is a size down from a G17. Can be argued its a service sized gun since some militaries and police departments have adopted it but its still a little brother.

If you think criminals always act alone you are greatly mistaken statistics say only 25% of people are attacked by one person. 50% by two and 25% by three or more. So its three times as likely you will be attacked by more than one person.

You mention when hunting you don't use too much gun. With people sized targets or large dangerous dogs any common pistol round is not enough gun. Not that many people carrying .44 Magnums or 10mm. That is why Police are taught to shoot and keep shooting until the threat is over.
Here is a good real world example of this, Not safe for work

Notice that both the robber and victim took solid enough hits to put them down, neither stopped for several seconds.

Here is something I don't think you consider. Police are not in some remote or exotic location. The Phoenix Police are patrolling the same streets where I live, drive and walk. They are of course responding to trouble, they look for it, they are called to it and I'm avoiding it. So they are a lot more likely to have to deal with it. But its all around me. Its not over there, its right here. Now I'm not going to lug around that heavy belt and all the stuff but don't think you are existing in a different world, because you are not.
 
I'd say the distinction between combat and self-defense exists before the fact and fades once life is in danger.

I chose my defense tools based on how I know I will feel after the attack is over. I like to get all my second guessing done beforehand. I imagine things not going well, then ask myself if I would have chosen differently.

I've chosen tools that I believe are the best/reasonable I can handle.
 
Great discussion - the choice of a CCW is something that has to be carefully considered. There are always trade-offs. In no specific order:
Concealability: Is your CCW missing the first C? Many people shoot full size handguns better than compacts or subcompacts. But large grips can print very easily or accidental contact can reveal it. Style of dress affects this also. Older guys with shoulder issues often use appendix holsters. For a person who is looking, it's easy to spot. The front of the shirt doesn't fall correctly or the end of the grip prints a point.
Proficiency: How well can you shoot it? Not talking about slowfire either! Try some holster draw doubles with a mag change in between. You might find out something that you wouldn't otherwise know.
Accessory equipment: You won't carry it around in a case! A CCW is only as good as your setup. A good holster that fits your carry location, body type, and provides a reasonable draw (and reholster). A mag carrier that fits your mags without wobble or noise. I've passed on good CCW deals after realizing that there weren't good choices for night sights.
Caliber: Something that is almost never discussed :)
Capacity: Again, very little forum discussion about this :)
Weight: This crosses with caliber, capacity, and proficiency. You can maintain proficiency with lightweight guns in 380/9mm for example, but fullhouse 357's in a j frame is something few can shoot and remain proficient. Most people prefer not to carry proverbial boat anchors unless they are weight training.
Finally: Use it and lose it. If there was a situation where a person ever had to use a CCW, it is evidence in the investigation. It is possible that it will be held for several years or may never be returned. BBQ guns need not apply!

Everyone considers some elements more important than others and will choose differently for various reasons. I'm sure there are other factors to consider, but it's a framework for decision making.
 
Proficiency: How well can you shoot it? Not talking about slowfire either! Try some holster draw doubles with a mag change in between. You might find out something that you wouldn't otherwise know.

The indoor ranges by us only allow slowfire. When I joined a local gun club with an outdoor range that allows rapid fire as long as it's controlled, I was surprised at how poorly I shot some of my guns when doing double or triple taps. It changed my choice of CCW.
 
As has been mentioned before CC is about compromise. Everyone should carry whatever they feel comfortable with and can shoot reasonably well.

Generally speaking I think it safe to say that most folks will shoot a larger sized handgun better than a smaller one. The reasons should be obvious; larger grip, longer barrel and more weight. I don't personally know anyone who can shoot an LCP sized gun as good as a G17 sized gun, I know I certainly can't.

If you're body type allows you to conceal a larger gun fairly well than good for you, go for it. If your BT does not allow good concealment of a larger gun but you want to carry one anyway, great, go for it. If your BT doesn't allow good concealment of a larger gun and you're more concerned about that, then carry the smallest well concealable gun that you can shoot reasonably well.
 
As has been mentioned before CC is about compromise. Everyone should carry whatever they feel comfortable with and can shoot reasonably well.

Generally speaking I think it safe to say that most folks will shoot a larger sized handgun better than a smaller one. The reasons should be obvious; larger grip, longer barrel and more weight. I don't personally know anyone who can shoot an LCP sized gun as good as a G17 sized gun, I know I certainly can't.

If you're body type allows you to conceal a larger gun fairly well than good for you, go for it. If your BT does not allow good concealment of a larger gun but you want to carry one anyway, great, go for it. If your BT doesn't allow good concealment of a larger gun and you're more concerned about that, then carry the smallest well concealable gun that you can shoot reasonably well.

The G17 and similar type handguns are offensive weapons from private citizens point of view. If one can't shoot LCP type pistol well enough at 20feet or less they would be better served with can of pepper spray.
 
What can and does separate them is something else - do you go looking to engage in shooting with another human being, or is it carried to respond to someone who may have selected you to be a victim.

I don't see how this makes any difference in choice of handgun. The danger is the same. If you wouldn't go after someone with it, why should you want it in your hand when he comes after you.
 
If I am going to be attacked by armed gangs, or huge super-strong fanatical people determined to kill me and high on adrenaline and drugs, I am not going out of my house.

If I MUST go out in those circumstances, I will have a 12-guage or a high-powered semi-automatic rifle, or probably both.

If, on the other hand, there is a tiny statistical chance that one or two guys are going to try to mug or carjack me, I feel fine carrying my 44 Bulldog or G43 or whatever. Once they have been shot a time or two or three, they will realize there is no profit in the venture.
 
The G17 and similar type handguns are offensive weapons from private citizens point of view. If one can't shoot LCP type pistol well enough at 20feet or less they would be better served with can of pepper spray.



Well that's a pretty audacious comment to make. I'd rather someone use a larger gun that they're competent with and get shots on target at 20ft than carry a micro and miss because someone like you told them they should be able to.

For the record I carry an LC9s most of the time. This was me at 15ft point shooting at chest/chin level rapid fire.


IMG_20161211_211242091_zpspkroevaj.jpg





Certainly nothing to brag about and I'm no expert but all shots are on target. If someone else needs a G19/17/1911/etc to do the same thing who are you or I to deny them that?
 
The G17 and similar type handguns are offensive weapons from private citizens point of view. If one can't shoot LCP type pistol well enough at 20feet or less they would be better served with can of pepper spray.
Why should one's choice of CCW be dictated by what others think? What if I'm carrying an LCP and I have to fire 21 feet? or 21 yards? Your comment attempts to combine a sweeping generalization with a personal opinion, and does so confusingly at best.

The antithesis of your statement, which would be "The LCP and similar type handguns are ineffective weapons from (a) private citizen's point of view. If one can't shoot (a) 1911 Gold Cup well enough at 50 yards they would be better served with a Kubotan." , makes about the same amount of sense. o_O

Not sure what Tirod is trying to say here, but my opinion is ALL handguns are a compromise for self-defense, it's up to the individual to decide what attributes the handgun they carry needs to have. But having one on you is the most important thing.
 
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I think the big difference is a police officer, if he sees a crime going down, is expected to intervene and stop the crime -- and prevent injury to innocent bystanders.

If a ordinary person sees a crime going down -- he is not expected to intervene. In fact, if the crime doesn't involve a direct treat to someone's life, he may get in trouble involving himself.

If an officer sees three guys running into a 7-11 with handguns, he is expected to do something about it.

If I, as an ordinary Joe sees the same thing, I'm taking cover and calling 911 and then, probably trying to read a license number. But no way am I going to run in after the bad guys with my snubby.

So I think its reasonable for me to carry a gun like one of my 5 shot 38's whereas the officer may carry a 15 shot Glock 40 cal.
 
Not sure what Tirod is trying to say here, but my opinion is ALL handguns are a compromise for self-defense, it's up to the individual to decide what attributes the handgun they carry needs to have. But having one on you is the most important thing.

As someone who survived a campus shooting and had a 12 Ga pointed at me after having his classroom shot up this is near and dear to me.

I mention this as during this attack I was unarmed and my pistol was licked in my car.

I survived by keeping my cool and letting my years of martial arts training guide me. In my case it was enough to startle the attacker enough so that a security guard could grab him. Part of me surviving was my training, some was a little luck (that I startled him and he didn't fire right away) and part divine intervention!

All that said I agree having your weapon with you is vital. But we all have to remember that we have to be proficient with it too. And we're all proficient at different levels.

Having been in a shooting situation I can tell you that what you see hear and experience is like nothing you've ever been through before. Those that have can probably explain it better than me.

But for me I would have been perfectly comfortable shooting my attacker had I been armed as he was at a distance I felt I could have made a clean shot even through the hole in the classroom door and my positioning.

Had the size of the hole been different or he been fifteen feet further and to the right or left I wouldn't have even though someone much more skilled could have made the shot.

So yea I'm against "gun free zones" as it disarms us. But when armed we have to be realistic of our skills, the situation, as well as the gun we choose!
 
For me, the choice of carry guns really has very little to do with relative effectiveness of one handgun vs another. It has nothing to do with hunting or whatever. I see the distance between "no gun" and "gun" as far larger than between "least effective handgun I would own" and "most effective handgun I could carry".

A bigger factor for me is the potential harm of being perceived as carrying.

I will spend most of today in a situation where having my carry gun spotted could potentially cost me hundreds of thousands of dollars. Not because I will be breaking any laws... you don't need to break laws to have negative consequences. On Monday, on the other hand, the consequences of my carry gun being spotted would have been approximately nil. I could have gone the whole day with a pistol openly on my belt without any particular risk of negative consequences.

My odds of actually needing a gun is about the same today vs. Monday, but the carry-related risk is not. If I am in a situation where the potential harm of being found carrying is greater, I am going to emphasize concealment which in part means smaller guns.

Beyond concealability, other factors can come into play. I may choose to carry a larger handgun when traveling because I intend to stop along the trip to go shooting but want to bring only one gun. There can be many factors including what works with my clothes. Effectiveness is in the mix somewhere, but it isn't the biggest factor.

The G17 and similar type handguns are offensive weapons from private citizens point of view. If one can't shoot LCP type pistol well enough at 20feet or less they would be better served with can of pepper spray.

What makes a thing offensive or defensive is how it is used, not the model number or how it looks. A g17 is no more an offensive weapon from the point of view of a private citizen that a Cher CD is an offensive weapon. Can it be used as an offensive weapon? Sure, but so can a glass of milk.
 
I used to carry a J frame 38 a lot. Great little gun and was very easy to carry. I dont anymore though.

One day I was at the mall with my daughter and she was playing in the indoor play area. I was reading about a mass shooting/terrorist attack that had happened that day. I can't remember which one though. Anyways I started looking around at the mall and realized that if that happened where I was all I had was a J frame 38. And if Johnny Jihadist came strolling in hollering about the Aloha Snackbar I dont want to be in a gunfight with a J frame 38.

After that I started carrying my Glocks again. Either a 27 when I need more concealment or my 17 when Im not too worried about printing. I also carry a spar mag.
 
I don't understand what causes people to try and pigeonhole us into some neat little a or b position.
Ed payed it out well in his post.
I'm personally not a big fan of a carry rotation for rotations sake but I am a believer in enough variety to accommodate and offer enough options to allow one to be armed when he chooses.
 
I don't understand what causes people to try and pigeonhole us into some neat little a or b position.
Ed payed it out well in his post.
I'm personally not a big fan of a carry rotation for rotations sake but I am a believer in enough variety to accommodate and offer enough options to allow one to be armed when he chooses.
I agree
I think Ed made an excellent post with some great points. In fact I don't recall ever seeing some of them and the few I did were not made anywhere as well.
 
Do you think some gun owners choose to carry the larger combat oriented guns because they see them as more "manly" than the smaller ones? It seems the posted prose describing the two different categories certainly lends support to that.

On the one hand - it's combat, the opposition of armed men valiantly trying to overcome the other, vs mouse gun, meant to aid someone in scurrying away from conflict, as all cowards do. Are we seeing some paint each category in the colors they perceive instead of analyzing the intent and purposes behind them?

I don't disagree their may be more mouse gun carriers out there than government marked surplus models but I have been younger once and in those days machismo was part of the mindset. It took training and experience to learn me better.
 
Do you think some gun owners choose to carry the larger combat oriented guns because they see them as more "manly" than the smaller ones? It seems the posted prose describing the two different categories certainly lends support to that.
Well, I guess I can't speak for many gun owners. We all know the stereotype of the guy who's firearms are an extension of his masculinity, or at least the media tells us we do.

Speaking only for myself, I don't carry small guns because I shoot standard sized guns well, and often, and the smaller sized guns I've shot weren't as easy for me to get "the most hits, fastest."
The second reason is that the smallest "defensive" type handgun I own is a 1911 Commander.

On the one hand - it's combat, the opposition of armed men valiantly trying to overcome the other, vs mouse gun, meant to aid someone in scurrying away from conflict, as all cowards do.
Who talks like that? EVERY defensive shooting instructor would say that the best gunfight ever is the one you manage to avoid. Coward? WTH? Ok, sign me up as a coward, then! If I can avoid a shooting, I have a practical (and almost certainly a legal) obligation to do so. Me and my 9mm or my .45 are getting the heck out of harm's way.

Are we seeing some paint each category in the colors they perceive instead of analyzing the intent and purposes behind them?
Is there some example you can point at? I'll admit I don't read or listen to much of the gun press so maybe I'm out of the loop, but aside from the boyish enthusiasm a lot of guys have for the video game and action movie version of police and military types, are standard service sidearms being sold decked out in camo and the blood of our enemies or something?

Seems a lot of ads I have these days feature ladies jogging, or defending themselves from someone breaking in their home. Or a dad walking on a sidewalk with his kids, and his 1911 or M&P or whatever holstered on his hip.

I don't disagree their may be more mouse gun carriers out there than government marked surplus models but I have been younger once and in those days machismo was part of the mindset. It took training and experience to learn me better.
Maybe it's generational, I don't know. I do know that there has always been a somewhat distressing trend toward people dropping down and down until they're carrying a tiny little pocket auto smaller than their hand. About once a year we try to get folks to bring those out and shoot them in a match -- prove to themselves how they perform with the gun they ACTUALLY carry. The ensuing apologetics and excusing of poor performance are legendary.
 
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