Dang it.... Wrong Powder for 1851 brasser.

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Analogkid

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Help...

I was gifted a nib 1851 Pietta brass frame 44 revolver a few days ago.

I went to the local Fun store that I knew carried BP supplies and asked to be shown what I needed to fire it. The manual was with the gun and I showed it to the guy at the gun counter and he helped me gather up what I would need. Powder, ox yoke wads/patches, grease and caps and Balls

Unfortunately now that I spent time surfing around it looks like the powder isn't correct or is too hot for the revolver. He handed me Hodgdon's Triple 7 fffg From what I am reading this is too hot for it. Unfortunately they will not take returns so I am on the lookout for the correct FFFG powder that will work in the gun.

What powder do I actually need to get for it? Im already out $27 for this powder. Id like to make sure I get the correct stuff. It states in the manual the charge should be from 12 to 15 grains of fffg. The triple 7 states its FFFG but apparently it is too hot? And also is the proper loading like this?. Charge of powder, wad, ball and then grease? I see guys talking about fillers and not sure if I need that or what. I'd really like to keep the gun intact as well as my fingers. Any help would be fantastic!
 
You can use Triple 7
Triple 7 is "Hotter" as you say, essentially about 15% more power when measured by volume compared to normal Real Black Powder.
Reduce the load by 15% MEASURED BY VOLUME (since Triple 7 is a lot lighter than Black Powder)
As you may already know the brass frames can't handle the same abuse over time that the steel frames can so keep your charges low if you want that revolver to last. This means you may need a filer prevent an air gap if you are (presumably) loading on the gun.
 
Analogkid said:
Charge of powder, wad, ball and then grease? I see guys talking about fillers and not sure if I need that or what. I'd really like to keep the gun intact as well as my fingers. Any help would be fantastic!
Click to expand...

Assuming the wads are lubed, grease wont be necessary. Wads can be used as fillers, though that's a bit expensive, jus add as many as needed. Filler is an fine ground, grain product. Cornmeal, cream of wheat, grits ect. Pour a measured amount over the powder charge, then load wad and ball. Fillers just take up space to get the ball closer to the chamber mouth. depends on who you talk to as to its actual worth. Competition shooters that can measure groups by caliber would most likely notice the difference.
 
Just cut back the powder charge some with the 777. If you're wanting some real fun try to find some real black powder next go around.
 
Finding real FFFg black powder can be difficult. Bass Pro Shops advertises that they carry it but I found that not to be the case. Bass Pro's HQ store in Springfield MO (about 1 hour from my place) didn't have any in stock. I googled around and found a gun shop in Springfield that carries real black powder. Place is called Cherokee Firearms. I made sure to call 1st.

If you want give us nearest city and we might be able to find a store that carries real BP.

As you probably noticed BP components are expensive. Can reduce some buying bulk but I think ultimately you have to start casting your own ball and research making your own powder.

I bought this powder last summer at Cherokee.
27486977296_a7c97352fd_b.jpg
 
drobs said:
Finding real FFFg black powder can be difficult. Bass Pro Shops advertises that they carry it but I found that not to be the case. Bass Pro's HQ store in Springfield MO (about 1 hour from my place) didn't have any in stock. I googled around and found a gun shop in Springfield that carries real black powder. Place is called Cherokee Firearms. I made sure to call 1st.

If you want give us nearest city and we might be able to find a store that carries real BP.

As you probably noticed BP components are expensive. Can reduce some buying bulk but I think ultimately you have to start casting your own ball and research making your own powder.

I bought this powder last summer at Cherokee.
27486977296_a7c97352fd_b.jpg
Click to expand...
I am in St Louis Mo.
 
Also thanks for the info on the triple 7. I assume the max charge of 15gr in the manual should really be like 12.75 or 13ish gr of triple 7?. (Maths rusty)

Is there a problem adding too much or too little filler? I'll save the grease for when I run out of patches.


I know I am going to get into this, I just know it...

I sat and watched the BP guys at the range for like 2 hours. Some let me send some down range . Pretty much hooked.... I have been saving and ingotizing lead pipe and sheets knowing I wanted to venture into it. I cast everything but rifle already but left a ton of dead soft, so I will look into getting few ball molds. I know the brass shouldn't have been my first choice but I'll start off with it.
 
Like others already suggested, reduce the charge. Besides, since yours is a brasser, you should keep it at recommended starting charges (for load development).
 
Welcome to the world of black powder revolvers. It's a lot of fun and addicting so have fun.
Yes you can use 777. Start with 10 to 12 gr and load for what is most accurate for your gun, Filler is only necessary for making sure there is no air gap thou others use it for accuracy ( i don't use any ).
You had written your 51 was 44 cal, double check as most 51s are 36 cal. If indeed it is 44 cal then increase load to 17 gr as a starting point. Adjust as needed.
That is my two cents worth and your mileage may vary. Be careful and use any advise at your own risk. Maybe contact those black powder guys you met for their input.
 
Original 1851 Navy's were 36 Cal, but the 1851 brass frame 44 "Navy" is modern marketing departments invention that just might be the most commonly purchased first C&B revolver since they are almost perpetually on sale and priced low. Those marketing folks have a whole line of bunk that they slew to perpetuate the charade. Come to think of it, snake oil salesmen were in full force durring the 1800's and if they had 'em they would have sold those 1851"Navys" and told just about the same outlandish stories to do it, so maybe those 1851 "Navys" are a bit more period correct than we thought. ;)
 
The need to reduce the charge by 15% is an older idea as there weren't any common energetic powders here. Triple 7 is very similar to Swiss and Olde Eynsford, real BP.

Something else I took note of is Mr Beliveau's testing comparing T7 and standard Goex, and despite his 15% reduction T7 still produced well over an additional 100 fps.



It's commonly said that 20 grns of 3F is fine in a .44 cal brass frame with a few even claiming a long life with even up to 25 grns.

Ultimately you should inspect the recoil shield each time you clean it. If you begin to notice the imprint of the back of the cylinder you know your loads are a bit too hot.

On another note if you were to decide to try conicals you should probably further reduce your charge. If 20 grns with a ball is max I'd guess 15 grns with a conical would be about max as it generates more pressure and recoil.
 
drobs said:
Finding real FFFg black powder can be difficult. Bass Pro Shops advertises that they carry it but I found that not to be the case. Bass Pro's HQ store in Springfield MO (about 1 hour from my place) didn't have any in stock. I googled around and found a gun shop in Springfield that carries real black powder. Place is called Cherokee Firearms. I made sure to call 1st.

If you want give us nearest city and we might be able to find a store that carries real BP.

As you probably noticed BP components are expensive. Can reduce some buying bulk but I think ultimately you have to start casting your own ball and research making your own powder.

I bought this powder last summer at Cherokee.
27486977296_a7c97352fd_b.jpg
Click to expand...
Grafs powder is Schutzen which is good powder. I've shot bunches of it.
 
Malachi Leviticus Blue said:
Original 1851 Navy's were 36 Cal, but the 1851 brass frame 44 "Navy" is modern marketing departments invention that just might be the most commonly purchased first C&B revolver since they are almost perpetually on sale and priced low. Those marketing folks have a whole line of bunk that they slew to perpetuate the charade. Come to think of it, snake oil salesmen were in full force durring the 1800's and if they had 'em they would have sold those 1851"Navys" and told just about the same outlandish stories to do it, so maybe those 1851 "Navys" are a bit more period correct than we thought. ;)
Click to expand...


I'm not sure what to make of all that. I'm pretty sure everyone knows its a fake and a fake in 44?
 
You might give this place a call, looks like they are family with Graf's and Sons.

http://www.grafsreloading.com/
923 S 5th St - St Charles, MO 63301 - 1-636-946-7468

Google points to the following store as carrying BP. However, they are blocking my overseas internet.

http://store.mmguns.com/

I bought a fantasy brass frame 51 / 44 Sheriff's model Pietta from Cabela's last year for $150 shipped. Orignal plan was to use the short barrel on 1 of my 2 1860 Army Piettas. Problem is I like the 1860's as is and I decided to "upgrade" to a steel frame for the Sheriff. Yesterday, I bought this Pietta 1860 steel frame (frame only). http://www.gunbroker.com/item/630907300

As long as you stick to the same manufacturer / caliber, these Pietta's are like legos. Can switch out parts (for the most part) with ease. Just a quick note, the purists get all upset by brass framed 44 revolvers as no such gun existed historically. For that matter the 1851 Colt was only offered in 36 caliber with a steel frame. While I'd like to add a .36 cal steel frame 1851 replica to my collection, I already have 4 revolvers in 44 caliber. I'm going to wait till Cabela's has another sale later this year.

^^not sure why this turned green
 
Last edited:
Analogkid said:
I'm not sure what to make of all that. I'm pretty sure everyone knows its a fake and a fake in 44?
Click to expand...

"Navy" means the Navy caliber, i.e., 36 caliber, and a lot of zealous period correct folks get upset about calling those 44 caliber replica 1851's "Navy". I'm just suggesting it's not such a big deal and throwing out a tongue in cheek justification for calling them "Navy" inspired by the fact that it appears one of those 1851 Navies is about to get another Soul hooked on Black Powder.
 
yep I own two 51' navy colts one brass the other in steel 44c. but I plan on ordering a 51' navy steel frame in the period correct 36 caliber to see what its like! :)
 
I am in RI. and I get my black powder GOEX at FOSTER BEAR ARMS in FOSTER, RI. he has plenty of it, toot.
 
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