stchman
Member
I'm pretty sure a .40S&W would have done the same thing.
Then there's the matter of the .357 SIG...
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I've not seen an issue with bullet integrity from typical (HST, Gold Dot) 357 Sig HP
It is destructive of gel, having 20% or more KE than many 9mm/40 loads has to be a factor.
Zaydok Allen
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I don't think a legit argument can be made that 357 Sig is an ineffective round for SD, though barrier penetration and weight retention always come up, and rightly so. They are important factors, but personally, for SD, I don't worry about them.
However, I tend to say go big or go home. My solution to the penetration and weight retention issues was to get a 10mm. None the less, I find myself craving a Sig Legion of some variety chambered in 357 Sig. I think it'd be a fun gun.
Super 38 has interested me since I first read about the history of the cartridge a few years ago. It also boasts some impressive ballistics, but I doubt I'll own one any time soon.
However, I tend to say go big or go home. My solution to the penetration and weight retention issues was to get a 10mm. None the less, I find myself craving a Sig Legion of some variety chambered in 357 Sig. I think it'd be a fun gun.
Super 38 has interested me since I first read about the history of the cartridge a few years ago. It also boasts some impressive ballistics, but I doubt I'll own one any time soon.
Unless you filed a Freedom of Information request to the agency and reviewed the entire proposal it is unlikely you would ever really know why an agency changed its procurement decision.
Patrol Officers might say that their agency switched from 357SIG to 9mm for political reasons because some of their officers were too wimpy to handle the recoil of the more powerful round, whereas if you looked at the Total Cost of Ownership analysis you might find that the agency realized that with the reduced cost of acquisition of a more common weapon combined with lower maintenance and ammunition costs, they would realize a $14 million savings each year. So, scuttlebutt as to why an agency adopted or dropped a weapon is probably worth about what was paid for it.
QUOTE:
"If anyone knows of an agency that moved away from this round I would like to know why."
New Mexico State Police for one. They carried Glock 31s for years then M&Ps. Now they carry 9mm due to "budget concerns" or so they are told. I know because I've asked a few.
M
"If anyone knows of an agency that moved away from this round I would like to know why."
New Mexico State Police for one. They carried Glock 31s for years then M&Ps. Now they carry 9mm due to "budget concerns" or so they are told. I know because I've asked a few.
M
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Bottom Gun
Member
Here is a very interesting penetration comparison using 9MM, .357 Sig, .40 S&W and .45 ACP.
Corpral_Agarn
Member
I really like 357 Sig especially when shooting long distances and when barrier penetration is important.
I have shot a frying pan at 240yrds with my Sig 226 in 357 Sig. It doesn't have quite the drop at distance that other calibers in semi auto platforms have (except maybe 10mm).
But, as much as I like it, 357 Sig is the least shot of all the calibers I own.
40 is cheaper and does pretty much the same, with the exception of distance shooting and barrier penetration...
I have shot a frying pan at 240yrds with my Sig 226 in 357 Sig. It doesn't have quite the drop at distance that other calibers in semi auto platforms have (except maybe 10mm).
But, as much as I like it, 357 Sig is the least shot of all the calibers I own.
40 is cheaper and does pretty much the same, with the exception of distance shooting and barrier penetration...
I have a 357 SIG barrel for my SIG P229 in .40 S&W and I enjoy shooting the caliber. I would probably do so more often but for the cost of 357 SIG ammunition. When it comes to good SD ammo, the price differential between .40 S&W and 357 SIG is either small or non-existant, but for FMJ practice ammo the difference is considerable.
For the self-defense scenarios that I can imagine myself being in, I can't find any advantage to 357 SIG over .40 S&W. 357 SIG may deliver more kinetic energy, but I have yet to see any credible evidence that makes a substantial difference in wounding potential (assuming adequate penetration) in handgun calibers. .40 S&W expands to create a larger crush channel, although the instances in which that is going to make a difference in self-defense effectiveness are probably few and far between. I personally don't find that there is a great deal of difference in recoil management between the two calibers. Yes, the recoil characteristics are different, but I don't find that one is significantly easier to control or that I shoot one better than the other. I have never had a failure to feed any type of .40 S&W ammunition in my P229, so I don't find the more reliable feeding argument in favor of 357 SIG compelling.
Apart from the greater ammo expense, 357 SIG is definitely louder and creates more muzzle flash, and both of these characteristics might be considered detriments for SD in interior spaces or dark conditions. I will concede that 357 SIG shoots flattter over distance and has better barrier penetration. But greater barrier penetration might be detrimental as well, especially when it comes to home defense. And at realistic self-defense range, the ballistic drop is not going to be significant.
For the self-defense scenarios that I can imagine myself being in, I can't find any advantage to 357 SIG over .40 S&W. 357 SIG may deliver more kinetic energy, but I have yet to see any credible evidence that makes a substantial difference in wounding potential (assuming adequate penetration) in handgun calibers. .40 S&W expands to create a larger crush channel, although the instances in which that is going to make a difference in self-defense effectiveness are probably few and far between. I personally don't find that there is a great deal of difference in recoil management between the two calibers. Yes, the recoil characteristics are different, but I don't find that one is significantly easier to control or that I shoot one better than the other. I have never had a failure to feed any type of .40 S&W ammunition in my P229, so I don't find the more reliable feeding argument in favor of 357 SIG compelling.
Apart from the greater ammo expense, 357 SIG is definitely louder and creates more muzzle flash, and both of these characteristics might be considered detriments for SD in interior spaces or dark conditions. I will concede that 357 SIG shoots flattter over distance and has better barrier penetration. But greater barrier penetration might be detrimental as well, especially when it comes to home defense. And at realistic self-defense range, the ballistic drop is not going to be significant.
TN Outlaw
Member
There does seem to be alot of negativity about the Sig, and i for one do not understand it. Is it 357mag fans that hate that it nearly duplicates its performance with 124/125gr pills? Idk? Im a huge fan of the Mag but i still like the Sig. Matter of fact, i see the Sig as a compliment to the 357mag in that its sole intent was to try to match the Mags performance in an autoloader.
Yes, the 357mag is way more versatile (imho) with a wider array of bullet wts and plenty of power to seperate itself when you get into the heavier rounds but i dont mind giving a little up for alot higher rounds count, quicker follow up shots, and with most poly guns, a lighter and less bulky CCW.
Like i said, im a huge fan of the 357mag but for everyday carry i generally carry a 9mm and on the occasions when i want more power its nice to do so with more than 5-6 rounds.
When said and done my G20 will conv to/from 10mm/40s&w and 9x25 Dillon/357 Sig with 18 rounds. I may be alone, but i dont see nothing short about any of them.
Yes, the 357mag is way more versatile (imho) with a wider array of bullet wts and plenty of power to seperate itself when you get into the heavier rounds but i dont mind giving a little up for alot higher rounds count, quicker follow up shots, and with most poly guns, a lighter and less bulky CCW.
Like i said, im a huge fan of the 357mag but for everyday carry i generally carry a 9mm and on the occasions when i want more power its nice to do so with more than 5-6 rounds.
When said and done my G20 will conv to/from 10mm/40s&w and 9x25 Dillon/357 Sig with 18 rounds. I may be alone, but i dont see nothing short about any of them.
Berger.Fan222
Member
For cheap practice ammo, with some experience, one can reload the .357 SIG with some carefully chosen inexpensive 9mm bullets for just slightly more than reloading the 9mm (a bit more powder). But buying practice ammo is a more expensive proposition than even the .40 S&W.
I always preferred the .357 SIG barrel to the 9mm or .40 S&W barrels on my P229 carried around the farm. A number of deer and varmints out to 200 yards have fallen to it. However, a 9mm or .40 S&W barrel is required for snake shot.
I've videoed some friends and family shooting an array of 9mm, .357 SIG, and .40 S&W loads in order to quantify the recoil in terms of the peak angle the barrel makes with the horizontal during recoil. For any given shooter, the peak recoil angle is linearly related to the bullet momentum (mV, or powder factor in some action pistol disciplines). With power factors close to 180,000 most .40 S&W loads recoil to larger angles than .357 SIG loads in the 150,000-160,000 range. Load a 115 grain bullet down around 1000 fps, and it's a kitten. But the difference between a 60 degree recoil angle and a 40 degree recoil angle is significant when it comes to accurate follow up shots under time pressure.
muzzleblast...
Member
In addition to many 9s, 40s and 45s semi-autos, I have two .357 SIGs, a P226 and a G32. I like the cartridge and tend to think of it as a 9mm "+P++."
Deaf Smith
Member
Fine with me. I consider my life to be special and thus I always keep an eye out for a 'edge'. A few dollars more in practice cost don't even raise an eyebrow with me.
Deaf
TN Outlaw
Member
Idk about "credible evidence" of the Sig being a better wounding round but for sure its been proven that caliber, that bullet wt, at that speed is a manstopper above all others by Agencies like IHP and THP with the 357mag so id say thats good enough evidence for me.
Ive also not had any 40S&W FTF, but its just physics that the necked down bottleneck design would be a more reliable round to feed by a higher %, feeding a small tapering object into a larger diameter chamber. In the same token of us never having feeding issues with the 40, ive never had a case where i was in a SD shooting so why should i carry a gun? Because in the event i happen to have to defend myself theres a higher % chance i will live if i carry. A bottleneck design gives a higher % chance of no FTF.
Underwood for instance carrys both 40s&w and 357sig jhp for around $17 per 20 and fmj plinking ammo is $32 per 50 for both. Same price but 40s&w is more plentiful and can be found cheaper.
Not much negative i can see about the sig other than every brick and mortar store not carrying ammo for it.
Bottom Gun
Member
I agree. Price and availability of factory ammo are the only two negatives I can see as well.
Luckily, as a reloader, neither of these issues applies to me. This is one cartridge that is almost mandatory to reload if you really want to enjoy it. I say that not only due to the above issues but for the benefit of flexibility as well. For example, how many ammo companies produce the round with a 115 gr bullet for plinking or varmints? Or a 90 gr? Or a moderate load? Sometimes it’s fun to play with lighter bullets, lighter loads, etc. That flexibility normally doesn’t exist with factory ammo.
Learning to reload was probably the single most important shooting related skill I have ever learned. It opened up a whole new world of shooting to me because it allowed me to experiment and thus I learned how much various bullet/powder combinations could affect not only my point of impact but my overall accuracy as well. That can and often does make a huge difference if you are shooting a gun that can deliver some decent accuracy.
There are horror stories complete with whining and sniveling circulating about how difficult it is to reload the .357 Sig cartridge. Those stories are total nonsense. It’s a breeze to load this round. The only thing to keep in mind is the case mouth should NOT be flared or belled. The neck is short so if you simply resize it then put a light chamfer on the case mouth instead of flaring it, you will be good to go. I don’t crimp it either. The neck tension will hold the bullet in place just fine without crimping.
So, having said all that, it may be wise to stay away from .357 Sig if you don’t reload. It may not be a good cartridge for new shooters or casual shooters who only shoot occasionally. They might be better off with 9MM or .40 S&W.
TN Outlaw
Member
Handloading opens alot of doors that the avg shooter dont have with just about any cartridge. Even more common ones but especially less common rounds. 357sig would be alot more shootable rolling your own. Back it off to 380/9mm or load it hot for SD plus a man can take advantage of the bullet wts factory ammo dont provide.
stchman
Member
A caliber being "boutique" does not give someone an "edge", if anything it's a liability. People may buy what they like, but calibers like these and .45GAP, .44AMP, .50AE, etc., does not make someone "special".
bannockburn
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Deaf
What you're saying is okay by me too. I'm still trying to figure out just what exactly a "boutique caliber" is!
I got hooked on the .38 Super because a couple of buddies of mine use to shoot it a lot and they were running some pretty hot handloads at the time. It was just something different to play around with in a 1911 than the usual .45 ACP.
What you're saying is okay by me too. I'm still trying to figure out just what exactly a "boutique caliber" is!
I got hooked on the .38 Super because a couple of buddies of mine use to shoot it a lot and they were running some pretty hot handloads at the time. It was just something different to play around with in a 1911 than the usual .45 ACP.
Deaf Smith
Member
Liability? With the Federal Air Marshals and several state police using the round (.357 Sig), New York State Police, South Carolina Highway Patrol, Georgia and Florida Highway Patrol still using .45 GAP (at least as of 2014/2015)? So I really doubt it.
So pray tell us why it makes some kind of liability issue?
Deaf
stchman
Member
.357SIG and .45GAP aren't going to do anything more for you than .40S&W and .45ACP. The guns and ammo associated with the first two calibers are more expensive and harder to find. I've seen how much .357SIG costs and I don't even see .45GAP out in the stores. If people wish to buy those guns in those calibers go ahead, still doesn't make them better or have an edge.
Zerodefect
member
.45GAP has an edge. It fits in a Glock 19 grip frame. Best CCW pistol of all time meets the .45.
I just went with .40 (G23), easier cheaper, close enough.
I just went with .40 (G23), easier cheaper, close enough.
vaalpens
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I love these 357sig discussions.
Reloading: 357sig Is not more difficult to reload, I would say it is just a round where you have tighter margins to work with. Not all 9mm bullets will work in 357sig, you have to concern yourself about neck tension, and the COL margin is limited by the shape off the bullet. I also like to give the 357sig reloading a bit more attention from case prep to the actual seating/crimping, but that is my choice. It is actually easier to reload than 9mm or 38spl/357mag since it is easier to handle, easy to inspect the powder and difficult to double charge. I think 40s&w is the easiest to reload for me because of the case size and ease of inspection.
Trust: When I go out shooting in the desert I always open carry. My preferred gun is my P229 in 357sig. When I have to pick a gun for some friendly target/drill type competition, I always pick the 357sig. I just have more confidence in it that it can handle shooting at distance and doing some drills. I normally reload mine to around 1300fps, which gives a good overall performance and also still lends itself to fast follow-up shots.
Reloading: 357sig Is not more difficult to reload, I would say it is just a round where you have tighter margins to work with. Not all 9mm bullets will work in 357sig, you have to concern yourself about neck tension, and the COL margin is limited by the shape off the bullet. I also like to give the 357sig reloading a bit more attention from case prep to the actual seating/crimping, but that is my choice. It is actually easier to reload than 9mm or 38spl/357mag since it is easier to handle, easy to inspect the powder and difficult to double charge. I think 40s&w is the easiest to reload for me because of the case size and ease of inspection.
Trust: When I go out shooting in the desert I always open carry. My preferred gun is my P229 in 357sig. When I have to pick a gun for some friendly target/drill type competition, I always pick the 357sig. I just have more confidence in it that it can handle shooting at distance and doing some drills. I normally reload mine to around 1300fps, which gives a good overall performance and also still lends itself to fast follow-up shots.
This will probably be my next purchase if I can find one at the right price. It just seems to be a great cartridge for the P239.
Deaf Smith
Member
More expensive or harder to find? So what? If it makes them a better shot then why not? If it makes them feel they have a harder hitting weapon or one that holds more or one that is more accurate or controllable, then why not?
See, it makes them better, as in one's edge, with such things as fitting their hand better (as zerodefect pointed out), or giving one more power for the same package as the .357 Sigs energy figures show with top loads from such as Double Tap, or just giving the user more confidence in what they carry. See confidence is a very big part of any fight. If you think you have an edge.. you do.
One just has to decide of paying and extra couple of dollars a box or going through the effort to reload their own is worth the edge they feel they get.
Deaf
Some people utilize the "rule of Mart" for caliber selection, if they can't walk into a Mart and buy ammo they don't want the caliber.
Then there are some that can't order ammo online cause they live in a crap place: "Ammunition is restricted from sale to CT, DC, IL, MA, NJ, NY, Los Angeles, Sacramento, Oakland, Carson, Santa Ana, Sunnyvale, Marin County, San Francisco, CA, New Orleans, LA, St. Paul City, MN, Philadelphia, PA and Washington DC."
For those of us with internet access, living in a "free" place we can take advantage of the convenience of having ammo delivered right to our door-
357 Sig is just as easy to obtain as 9mm.
During some of the ammo shortages, 357 SIG ammo was much easier to find in stock, than 9mm, .45 ACP, or .40 S&W, apparently because far fewer folks felt compelled to hoard 357 SIG, a significant advantage of this "boutique" cartridge, at the time. This was one reason I bought and kept a 357 SIG barrel, for my P229 pistols, during my .40 duty pistol era. (I now use 9mm and .45 duty pistols; .40 is no longer mandated, thankfully.) I sold that barrel, along with one of the several P229 pistols I sold when I stopped using .40 S&W.
The 357 SIG made plenty of good sense when bullet technology was not as advanced as today. For quite a while, the only way to ensure consistent expansion of the better bonded-core bullets was plenty of velocity. Today, 357 SIG remains valid, but is less necessary.
When criminals/enemies inside motor vehicles are a significant threat, every bit of velocity is useful. This was a reason for .38 Super and .357 Magnum in the Thirties, and 357 SIG in the Nineties and into this century. This velocity remains as valid as ever, but today's "tactical bonded" ammo makes it less necessary.
The 357 SIG made plenty of good sense when bullet technology was not as advanced as today. For quite a while, the only way to ensure consistent expansion of the better bonded-core bullets was plenty of velocity. Today, 357 SIG remains valid, but is less necessary.
When criminals/enemies inside motor vehicles are a significant threat, every bit of velocity is useful. This was a reason for .38 Super and .357 Magnum in the Thirties, and 357 SIG in the Nineties and into this century. This velocity remains as valid as ever, but today's "tactical bonded" ammo makes it less necessary.
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