Then there's the matter of the .357 SIG...

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whatnickname

whatnickname

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Admittedly a specialty round supposedly designed at the request of one or two law enforcement agencies. I've read that they were highway patrol agencies that specifically requested a ballistic equlivent of the 125 grain 357 magnum round in a semi-auto handgun. While the 357 SIG,with the 124 grain bullet, accomplished that goal, the 357 SIG will never be the ballistic equal of the 357 magnum with heavier bullets such as the 158 grain bullet. That said most of the rest of the world yawned and stayed with the 9MM, as the SIG only bested the 9MM by 200 fps in most cases. Admittedly the 357 SIG has some commercial drawbacks. The bottle necked case is more difficult, read that more time consuming, to reload and commercial ammo is more difficult to find not to mention more expensive.

However, these factors also offer some very good opportunities for those willing to accept them. In the last six months, I've gotten some smok'n hot deals on some LEO trade-ins in 357 SIG. A very nice SIG 229 that came with a spare 40 S&W barrel and five magazines ($500 & change) and a G32 that was $340 out the door. The SIG is in 95% condition...maybe a tad better than 95% and the Glock, at first blush, appeared to be unissued and unfired. It was only when I noticed that the slide release was a bit shiney that I realized that this pistol had seen a couple of trips in and out of a holster. All in all, I like deals like this. On top of the ballistic capabilities of the 357 SIG, I'm a fast barrel change away from 40 S&W where I can use these more economically if I wish to do so. So my question is simply this: In so far as I know, the Oklahoma Highway Patrol and the Texas DPS, are the only two agencies that currently use the .357 SIG. What other agencies use this round? Has anyone heard of other agencies moving away from this round where there may be some other opportunities for good LEO trade-ins? If anyone knows of an agency that moved away from this round I would like to know why.
 
The air marshalls use it, Clarksvile, Tn. PD used it at one time (Sig 229). Not sure what they are doing now.
 
bannockburn said:
whatnickname

Well you definitely got a great deal on that SIG 229 that's for sure! My one non-mainstream cartridge of choice is the .38 Super.
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The .38 Super is an outstanding round. Don't know why I've never acquired one... Just haven't come across any good deals. One of these days l'm sure I will have one. What's your favorite load in the Super?
 
Thread needs some chrono data, my 5 shot averages:
Glock 22 with Lone Wolf Glock 31 barrel:
Speer Gold Dot 125 @ 1,363 fps / 516# KE
Federal HST 125 @ 1,385 fps / 533# KE
Ranger T 125 @ 1,389 fps / 536# KE
Glock 32:
Winchester Ranger T 125 gr. @ 1,340 fps / 499# KE
Speer Gold Dot 125 gr. @ 1,344 fps / 501# KE
Federal HST 125 gr. @ 1,358 fps / 512# KE

As for comparisons to 357 Mag with 4'' barrel, that measurement doesn't include the chamber, pistol does, Glock 31 more valid.
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html
Link above, Real World Weapons 4'' S&W 686 Federal 125 JHP @ 1,436 fps / 572# KE
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/
Link above, 4'' barrel GP100 Remington 125 Semi-jacket HP @ 1,473 fps / 602# KE

Those two 357 Mag loads built the reputation of the 357 Mag as a "stopper"
Looking at HST from my converted Glock 31, KE is just 7% below the Federal 125 and 11% below the Remington.
357 Sig KE may not equal the "legendary" 125 gr. Magnum loads, but it is close.
Capacity and speed of follow up shots are not so close. ;)
 
Other posts ive seen elsewhere showed narrower differences in chrono'ed data between the Sig round and some +P 9 stuff. In the end, the good modern loads in 9 give good expansion, good penetration, and do all that's generally asked, so what paper difference there is, isn't all that great in actual results.

One aspect of the older 357 mag loads and expansion was they tended to have a lot of soft lead exposed, something that the Sig and other don't share. It takes better bullets than the older 357 mag loads to achieve reliable expansion in jacketed hollowpoints with no lead exposed.

Another thing not always mentioned, there were in fact some problems with the 125 gr 357 mag loads (poor penetration at times, bullets breaking up etc), they were not supernatural or perfect, it just seemed to get overshadowed in the "awesome legendary-ness" part. Some agencies were happy to move on, all things considered. Some experienced with the various loads of the revolver period liked the 158 gr JHP loads better, as being more reliable penetrators. Its a great cartridge, but its not perfect.
 
whatnickname said:
So my question is simply this: In so far as I know, the Oklahoma Highway Patrol and the Texas DPS, are the only two agencies that currently use the .357 SIG. What other agencies use this round? Has anyone heard of other agencies moving away from this round where there may be some other opportunities for good LEO trade-ins? If anyone knows of an agency that moved away from this round I would like to know why.
Click to expand...

As far as I know the RI state Police also issue the 226 in 357SIG. IF wikipedia is to be believed there's a few agencies and DEPTs issing it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.357_SIG

I carry one that's a converted .40 HK P2000. If you reload it's only a couple cents more per round than reloading 9mm and honestly with the right set up (I use Dillon) isn't any harder. I shoot mine (HK P2000, SIG 226) more in 357SIG for this reason than I do .40. It does have some substantial muzzle blast, but it's bark is way worse than it's bite and recoils is about the same as a .40. maybe a little less.

About the only drawback I've found so far is 357SIG forum threads seem to draw an unusual amount of folks that want to either compare it to 9mm +P+ or lighter .40 S&W loads and some that will explain how difficult it is to reload for, but haven't actually done it.......

Chuck
 
whatnickname said:
Admittedly a specialty round supposedly designed at the request of one or two law enforcement agencies. I've read that they were highway patrol agencies that specifically requested a ballistic equlivent of the 125 grain 357 magnum round in a semi-auto handgun. While the 357 SIG,with the 124 grain bullet, accomplished that goal, the 357 SIG will never be the ballistic equal of the 357 magnum with heavier bullets such as the 158 grain bullet. That said most of the rest of the world yawned and stayed with the 9MM, as the SIG only bested the 9MM by 200 fps in most cases. Admittedly the 357 SIG has some commercial drawbacks. The bottle necked case is more difficult, read that more time consuming, to reload and commercial ammo is more difficult to find not to mention more expensive.

However, these factors also offer some very good opportunities for those willing to accept them. In the last six months, I've gotten some smok'n hot deals on some LEO trade-ins in 357 SIG. A very nice SIG 229 that came with a spare 40 S&W barrel and five magazines ($500 & change) and a G32 that was $340 out the door. The SIG is in 95% condition...maybe a tad better than 95% and the Glock, at first blush, appeared to be unissued and unfired. It was only when I noticed that the slide release was a bit shiney that I realized that this pistol had seen a couple of trips in and out of a holster. All in all, I like deals like this. On top of the ballistic capabilities of the 357 SIG, I'm a fast barrel change away from 40 S&W where I can use these more economically if I wish to do so. So my question is simply this: In so far as I know, the Oklahoma Highway Patrol and the Texas DPS, are the only two agencies that currently use the .357 SIG. What other agencies use this round? Has anyone heard of other agencies moving away from this round where there may be some other opportunities for good LEO trade-ins? If anyone knows of an agency that moved away from this round I would like to know why.
Click to expand...
Virginia state boys also carry them, bought one of the trades for $340, have not fired it yet but looks to be in fine shape.
 
In my mindset, I have no idea why some folks like to depend upon pistols that use somewhat "obscure" cartridges. I really like the .357 caliber, but I prefer to use the cartridge that has been around since 1935 (in various forms) and pistols that shoot them. It is probably the best widely available manstopper around, and one can find all manner of .357 Mag cartridges in most any store or LGS. When the SHTF, one would be better off.

Coonan Arms: I have shot one of those decades ago as a Model B and it ran perfectly with whatever factory loads we put through it. It was for sale and in the early 1980's I could not see forking over ~$600 for it. I kick my own butt now for not doing so.

I personally like the Basic Model 5" because it is heavier at the muzzle end, but there are many flavors that Coonan offers. I am 65 and don't think my hands would handle that pistol, let alone the smaller, shorter versions. I shoot a (HD) 1911 Government Model .45 ACP clone well, but the recoil on the .45 is more of a "push" as opposed to the sharper recoiling pistols, mainly because of a large bullet travelling at slower speeds.

Just my $.02 worth.

http://www.coonaninc.com/pistol-showroom

Some history from another forum for your perusal:

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=548944

Jim
 
expat_alaska said:
In my mindset, I have no idea why some folks like to depend upon pistols that use somewhat "obscure" cartridges. I really like the .357 caliber, but I prefer to use the cartridge that has been around since 1935 (in various forms) and pistols that shoot them. It is probably the best widely available manstopper around, and one can find all manner of .357 Mag cartridges in most any store or LGS. When the SHTF, one would be better off.

Jim
Click to expand...

I cant speak for everyone, but I believe some see the perceived advantage of certain loads, some like different, and, pertaining to the last part I quoted, since the unpleasant ammunition supply issues of the past few years, Ive seen several people say they bought 40s (as spares) because its some of the only ammo that was easy to find when the common rounds were often sold out for extended periods. Expanding their supply horizon so to speak.

I think bottleneck pistol cartridges are pretty cool looking. Thats probably enough reason for some.
 
Malamute said:
I cant speak for everyone, but I believe some see the perceived advantage of certain loads, some like different, and, pertaining to the last part I quoted, since the unpleasant ammunition supply issues of the past few years, Ive seen several people say they bought 40s (as spares) because its some of the only ammo that was easy to find when the common rounds were often sold out for extended periods. Expanding their supply horizon so to speak.

I think bottleneck pistol cartridges are pretty cool looking. Thats probably enough reason for some.
Click to expand...

Also in theory they provide increased reliability as you're feeding a .355" bullet into a .40 hole. Mine have never jammed, but my 226 has jammed in .40 once, my HK has never had a stoppage in either caliber. So based off my extremely small sampling there "might" be something to it.

As for the Coonan?? I dunno why I personally over looked the Coonan when I was selecting a SD handgun....Hmmmmm. OH, now I remember, it was the:

Twice the cost, half the capacity and added weight features it brought to the table. The compact is a 6+1 gun and is 39.9 ounces empty........

Chuck
 
Malamute said:
Other posts ive seen elsewhere showed narrower differences in chrono'ed data between the Sig round and some +P 9 stuff..
Click to expand...

Comparing HST from my pistols and chrono...
9mm Glock 19 HST 147 gr. +P @ 1,035 fps / 350# KE
9mm Glock 19 HST 124 +P @ 1,200 fps / 397# KE
357 Sig Glock 32 HST 125 @ 1,358 fps / 512# KE

Some compare the 124 gr. 9mm+P to the 357 Sig and think, "Not that much difference, only about 150 fps" (They likely not buying 357 Sig)
Others look at the same numbers and think, "Dang, 357 Sig has over 22% more KE than hot 9mm +P" (This person more likely to buy 357 Sig)
 
CDW4ME said:
Comparing HST from my pistols and chrono...
9mm Glock 19 HST 147 gr. +P @ 1,035 fps / 350# KE
9mm Glock 19 HST 124 +P @ 1,200 fps / 397# KE
357 Sig Glock 32 HST 125 @ 1,358 fps / 512# KE

Some compare the 124 gr. 9mm+P to the 357 Sig and think, "Not that much difference, only about 150 fps" (They likely not buying 357 Sig)
Others look at the same numbers and think, "Dang, 357 Sig has over 22% more KE than hot 9mm +P" (This person more likely to buy 357 Sig)
Click to expand...
The SIG packs a punch. Stuff in the 500# range starts comparing favorably to the 45 ACP. That said there are quite a few folks out there that are gonna take exception to this statement citing larger diameter and heavier slug etc. That debate has kept the hot stove league talking for years. Who knows for sure. One thing for certain is that no one is going to volunteer to step in front of 125 grains of bullet traveling at 1358 fps just to prove a point. As for me, if all I was holding when the SHTF was a 357 SIG I don't think I would go around feeling sorry for myself.
 
Personally, I really like the .357 Sig round. It’s a flat shooting hard hitting round with slightly more recoil than a 9MM and less recoil than a .40 or .45. The .357 Sig will penetrate barriers better than 9MM, .40 or .45. The bottleneck cartridge makes it virtually jam proof. I’ve intentionally tried make my P226, P239 and P229 jam and was not able to.

The people who say it’s so hard to reload don’t know what they are doing. It’s no harder to reload than any other bottleneck cartridge. Once you have your brass, it’s no more expensive to reload than 9MM except for a bit more powder. It’s less expensive to reload than a .40 or .45.

There are smoking deals to be had on .40 cal Sigs these days and it’s a simple matter to swap barrels to convert them to .357 Sig, which is what I did with all my Sig pistols including my P239. That little single stack P239 in .357 Sig is a nice concealed carry gun with plenty of power.

The P239 is probably the most versatile of the Sig pistols. I can carry the .357 Sig round (or the .40) and when I want to practice, I have to option of using 9MM with a simple barrel/recoil spring/magazine change. The other Sigs require a slide swap to change from .357 or .40 to 9MM, not so with the P239.

If you reload, you aren’t stuck with the 125 gr bullets. You can load any .355 diameter projectile from 90 gr to 147 gr. I just loaded some 115 gr HAPs and some 147 gr XTPs this morning. It’s a very versatile cartridge.

The only downside I can think of is factory ammo is more expensive than the other three cartridges and it does have a bit more muzzle blast than the others. Neither of those “drawbacks” is an issue with me. I stopped carrying 1911’s in favor of my P239 or my P229 in .357 Sig. It’s simply a better round.

I suspect that most of the guys who feel the need to bad mouth the Sig round have never owned one.
 
When loaded to full capacity by manufacturers such as Underwood, the 357SIG has ballistics a 9mm can not meet. Their advertised numbers are as follows:

Technical Information:
  • Caliber: 357 SIG
  • Bullet Weight: Grains
  • Bullet Style: Speer Bonded Jacketed Hollow Point
  • Case Type: Ducta-Bright 7a Nickel Plated Brass
Ballistics Information:
  • Muzzle Velocity: 1475 fps
  • Muzzle Energy: 604 ft. lbs.
I attached the link to a get test from TNoutdoors9.The 5 shot average was 1511 fps with 634 ft lbs of muzzle energy. It penetrated to 15 inches. It's my preferred SD caliber, as it simply has numbers and proven performance that give it somewhat of an edge over the other common calibers. I attached a couple of other links to an article by Massad Ayoob and a study of actual shootings. It's advantage may not be dramatic, but it's there.



http://www.tactical-life.com/gear/defense-loads-of-choice-the-word-from-the-street/2/

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power
 
stchman said:
.357 SIG, .38 Super, both boutique calibers.
Click to expand...


That same term was used to describe my Les Baer pistols in the past and I’m not quite sure what it means. Does that mean I’m supposed to wear Jordache jeans and Foster Grants when I shoot .357 Sig?

The .38 Super is a good round too. I regret selling my .38 Super pistols now but back when I let them go today’s bullet technology simply didn’t exist. Had I been able to purchase the bullets readily available today, I would still have them. I do think the Sig round is superior to the Super though. It hits harder and you can’t beat the bottleneck case for reliability. I’ve had a jam with every straight wall pistol cartridge I have ever used at one time or another for various reasons but have NEVER had a jam with the Sig round even when I intentionally tried to jam it. Now I feel THAT is significant.

I’m having difficulty understanding why some folks say the .357 magnum is such a bad ass cartridge and feel well armed when they carry it but when someone else shoots the same bullet out of an autoloader at a similar velocity it’s considered a pussy round that is inadequate for self defense.

You can say the same about the .30 Mauser and .30 Luger which a member just posted a photo of. They were and still are considered bad ass handgun cartridges by some. They were ahead of their time when they were developed. Anyone who carried a broom handle was considered to be very well armed. Those cartridges would have been much more devastating if today’s powder and bullet technology were available back then.

My first pistol was a Colt 1911 in .45 ACP. I have owned dozens since and carried a 1911 for decades. I never heard anyone say that it wasn’t enough gun. Only recently have I put the trusty 1911 away and started carrying the .357 Sig round instead. I didn’t stop carrying the 1911 because it was too powerful and I was afraid of ripping whatever I shot with it in half, I switched to the Sig round because it has more energy, penetrates farther and most pistols in that caliber have nearly twice the capacity of the 1911. In other words, I feel I have increased my firepower dramatically by moving into the 21st century with the .357 Sig.

Apparently some inept fag gun writer lacking in ability and devoid of any common sense had some trouble reloading the .357 Sig round with his little Lee Loader so it has been an awful round to reload ever since. I must be blessed because I’ve managed to load thousands of rounds without blowing a gun up. It’s no different from any other bottleneck case. If you can load .223, .308, .30-06, etc and have a lick of common sense, you can easily load the Sig round. It’s not rocket science.

So, in closing I would like to urge you to consider the round based upon your personal experience with it rather than heresay rants or what someone who has never actually used the cartridge has to say about it. Try it yourself then base your opinion upon your own personal experience rather than parroting what some person who has never even handled a box of cartridges has to say about it. You may be surprised. I know I was. There’s a reason some law enforcement and the Secret Service use it.
 
It only penetrates barriers better if it doesn't break apart. Weight retention can be a problem. It didn't seem to yaw as much as 9mm. When it did break apart, .40 did better. As did .45, if it made it through.

It's a great round if you want more than 9mm.

There's definitely a difference between the rounds, even if the FBI gel says there isn't.

A .45 only penetrates the same barrier well, if it makes it through. Generally, if it does make it through, it retains good weight and momentum. If .45 makes it through ok, it's a pretty darn good round. But every once in a while you get a barrier that everything zips through, except .45.


A good read about the .357 sig:

https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/7-things-know-357-sig-sort/

http://americancopmagazine.com/massad-ayoob-reconsiders-the-357-sig/
 
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Former State Police friend swears by the 357 Sig after it saved his life. Shot through a windshield at a suspect trying to run him over. Boutique round or not, I like it too.

G31-9.JPG

M
 
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