Glock and the .357 Sig...

[CZF]

The .357 SIG might appeal to someone that isn't able to buy the
LEO Ranger load or that doesn't care to shop for the +P+ stuff.

Most folks buy and carry 9mm Hardball because it is cheap and they
often get a free box or discount when buying the gun.

I'm still hoping for a production CZ in .357 auto.

 

[Gixerman1000]

jc2

US-SS should have consulted you before they went to such a worthless round with out even testing it.

I think we all get your point, you hate 357sig, 125gr bullets are like shooting cotton balls so there is no point in it and no one should have one because everything else is better.

I mean how dare they even call it "357" and infringe on the great 357 MAGNUM!!!!
____________________________________

On a Side note
I have been shooting Double tap ammo out of my G20 with great results, they load the 10mm the way it was meant to be loaded, HOT !!! They also have some hot loads for the 357 sig & mag.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/

 

[jc2]

Gixerman -

Have you even read the thread, and what I have posted? I never said or implied the 357 SIG was a "worthless round"--that's your imagination at work.

Since you evidently missed it:

The 357 SIG is a good round, but that's it--nothing more and nothing less. If you like it, fine, but it's no magic bullet. It offers the same level of performance and effectiveness as any of the current generation service calibres. It's just another choice.

I don't know how you can construct that I "hate the 357 SIG" out of that statement--or that shooting 125-grain bullets is "like shooting cotton balls" (even though I did state I prefer heavier bullets). I have backed my remarks with references to (and quotes from) some of the most respected my names in wounds ballistics--people on whom LEAs and government agencies rely for credible testing and recommendations. When I have cited penetration and expansion figures they are reputable, quality published sources.

I am sorry the facts do not support what appear to be some cherished beliefs about the 357 SIG on your part. It remains a good round that offers the same level of performance/effectiveness as any and all of the current generation service calibres. It's just another choice and is every bit as viable of a choice as the 9x19, .40 S&W, or any of the other service calibres.

 

[waktasz]

147gr 357SIG ammo certainly exists.

 

[Gixerman1000]

My reading comprehension skills are just fine thanks, I read the thread and also read your replies on the other thread about the 357sig.

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=108305

You have to admit, something is always getting bashed one way or the other, revolvers vs auto’s, round vs round, brand vs brand and even light bullet vs heavy bullet,,,, It just gets tiring after a while and I may be a little touchy, even thou you did say “it’s a good round†it seems like no matter what the round is a waste when you can have a 9mm or 357mag.

Anyway, I just don’t agree with you about “the 357 SIG delivers 9x19 performance/effectiveness--nothing more, nothing lessâ€

I have no “cherished beliefs about the 357 SIG†nor am I a “357sig worshiperâ€

As far as handguns go I think I have an open mind
1 --- 22lr
1 --- 32acp
1 --- 38spl
4 --- 9mm
3 --- 357mag
2 --- 357sig
7 --- 40sw + 1 barrel for 229
1 --- 10mm
1 --- 41mag
1 --- 44mag
5 --- 45acp
1 --- 454casull
1 --- 50ae

So I am not bias to one or the other, I have seen the ballistics and from what I have seen most loadings in 357sig at 50 yards are about the same as most loadings in 9mm+P at the muzzle and standard pressure 9mm loads are even farther behind, 9mm+P+ loadings are close to the 357sig but still behind and not all pistols are rated for +P much less +P+.

As far as bullet performance goes both will more than do the job and unless you just want a pistol in 357sig or only feel the need to own one pistol the 9mm is more practical being cheaper to shoot/train with but still has a wide verity of good defensive loads.

The 9mm is extremely effective with modern bullet technology and current loadings (I trust a 9mm, I carry a P7M8), so are current loads in 40sw, 45acp ect, I also agree the 357sig comes close the 357mag only in a few certain loads and I don’t see them in the same category. But the 357sig has a more speed and power than the 9mm (even with +P+ loads) and so far is doing better at stopping a person with one shot, that’s a fact.

Here are some links on the issue
http://www.handguninfo.com/Archive/www.Pete-357.com/9mm.357.compare.htm

http://www.speer-bullets.com/default.asp?s1=7&s2=26

PS, The cotton balls thing was funny Hehehehe
Take care

 

[jc2]

Anyway, I just don’t agree with you about “the 357 SIG delivers 9x19 performance/effectiveness--nothing more, nothing lessâ€

That's certainly your perogative, but most as I indicated a number of a highly respected labs and ammunition testers say otherwise including Gary Roberts, Buford Boone, and Dave DiFabio--and their position is based on actual the performance of the cartridge, and not what they want to believe.

As for any head to head the 357 SIG with .357 Magnum, it will always lose across the board unless you want establish a string of caveats a mile long to make it competitive. The 357 SIG is largely a "one pony show"--and that "pony" is a 125-grain JHP. The .357 Magnum is one of the most versatile calibres available. The ONLY autoloader cartridge that is comparable is the 10mm.

I looked at your links. The first is a very old and dated advocacy site. In fact, much of the material is out of date and/or unsubstantiated opinion. A lot of the new has worn off the 357 SIG since that website current, and we know a lot more about the round. FWIW, the 357 SIG will deliver slightly more ME/MV than the 9x19, but at the MV/ME levels involved, the difference just doesn't make any difference--both rounds fall way below the threshold where velocity and/or energy becomes a factor in effectivenes. BTW, this quote from the first website you linked to pretty wells sums it:

What does the .357 Sig offer which is not already available? Are we missing something? We have not observed any better performance with the .357 Sig than with the better 9mm loads; the better .40 S&W loads appear to offer superior performance compared with the .357 Sig. Buford Boone at the FBI Academy and I [Dr. Gary K. Roberts] have compared our respective test data on the .357 Sig--our results are nearly identical. The best .357 Sig load appears to be the 125gr Gold Dot JHP. In both the FBI testing and our assessment, it offers virtually IDENTICAL performance as the 9 mm 124 gr +P Speer Gold Dot JHP in both bare gelatin and through the various intermediate barriers. Likewise, the 9mm 147 gr Winchester Ranger Talon JHP offers similar terminal performance. The best that can be said of the .357 Sig is that it equals the 9mm in terminal performance, although at the price of less ammunition capacity along with greater recoil, muzzle flash, and wear on the weapon. Both the .40 S&W and .45 ACP make larger holes in the target and therefore have the potential to more rapidly incapacitate an aggressive adversary in a lethal force encounter. In addition, the greater mass of the .40 S&W and .45 ACP bullets offer an improved chance of defeating an intervening obstacle while still having enough penetration to reach the vital organs of an armed opponent. I fully agree with Mr. Boone when he writes that the .357 Sig is, “Not a great or lousy cartridge, just another choice."

Well, all I can say is, "If the 357 Sig is not a great cartridge or a lousy cartridge, then it must be a good cartridge, just like the 9mm, 10mm, .40, .45, 38 Special, & .357 Magnum. That's really excellent news. Thanks for the heads up".

Basically, the 357 SIG is a good round. It doesn't really offer any advantages over the 9x19 or any other service calibres. It's just another choice. Shoot it and be happy.

I'm glad you were able to control a higher road in this post. Thanks.

 

[cratz2]

As for any head to head the 357 SIG with .357 Magnum, it will always lose across the board unless

OK... how about this. One shooter has a Model 19 loaded with 125 Gr loads, the other shooter has a SIG 229 loaded with 125 Gr loads. Two tests... first test is smallest 6 round group at 15 yards fired in 3 seconds. Second test is fastest 13 round group at 15 yards.

Do you really think the revolver is likely to win either test? And they aren't unreasonable tests either. Many 357 SIGs are carried by highway patrolmen... shooting into a fleeing vehivle, popping off rapid rounds. I think a 229 or a G31 or 32 is a more effective tool for said use.

And I don't even like the 357 SIG! You're hatred of the round shows in every post you make concerning it and you are always so quick to resort to name calling. Definately not the high road.

 

[jc2]

cratz2 -

Do you really think the revolver is likely to win either test?

We talking calibre (ballistics)--not platform (comparing the autoloader to a revolver). There really is a difference! Why don't you try reading the thread before you start posting.

You're hatred of the round shows in every post you make concerning it and you are always so quick to resort to name calling.

Again, cratz2, why don't you read the thread before you go off half-cocked. I have said repeatedly in this thread that the 357 SIG is a good round--that's not exactly hatred, is it? So far, cratz2, there's only been two posts that crossed into the area of personal attack--your's is the second. Neither of them is mine. You must have really got up on the wrong side of the bed the morning.

One more time for the record (for the fourth or fifth time in this thread):

The 357 SIG is a good round, but that's it--nothing more and nothing less. If you like it, fine, but it's no magic bullet. It offers the same level of performance and effectiveness as any of the current generation service calibres. It's just another choice.

The 357 SIG is a good calibre, but it is no better than any of the other service calibres. It is just another choice--nothing more, nothing less. Unfortunately, there has been a whole lot of hype, PR, misinformation and just plain hype published about it in the popular press (read gunrags). Some of those who have bought into myth find the facts about the calibre a little upsetting.

 

[ECVMatt]

This sounds like the old tune...

My dog is better than your dog..


To each his own. I have a Glock 31 and love it. I shoot it mostly in the desert. I like to use it out there because it is a really flat shooter. I brought my 17 along to compare one time and it did not come close to the 31. No, I was not shoot +P+ ammo out of my nine, but I rarely do when I am target shooting. I like the extra power of the .357 sig. Some may say it is a moot point, but when you shoot steel or cans or whatever the difference is major. The sig is definately the superjacent of the two. The difference might not be much, but it is there. All that being said, I have to agree with the others that the 10 is the way to go for power. My 20 has almost forced my entire Glock collection into retirerment.

If you like it get it, if you don't, don't.

Matt

 

[cratz2]

I read the thread... The only thing you seem to be able to say to folks that disagree with you is, 'read the thread... read the tread...'

As I said, the words you chose just seem to make you come off as having a very anti-357 SIG agenda. I don't own one and I have no desire to own one. I daily carry a lowly 9mm that I feel more than adequately serves its purpose but you really have some harsh words for folks that defend the 357 SIG... That's all.

And on that, I'm done with it.

 

[jc2]

but you really have some harsh words for folks that defend the 357 SIG

Nope, go back and re-read the thread. You've made more personal remarks than anybody who has posted in this thread. You seem to be of the school that practices if you don't like message, attack the messenger (and then blame the messenger).

 

[JohnKSa]

cratz2,

Relax--anyone who's frequented this forum or TFL for long realizes that there are some constants besides death and taxes.

Posts that contain the following topics will typically get predictable responses (content and source).

Anything vs .357MAG (Especially 10mm or .357SIG vs .357MAG)
Autos vs Revolvers
Glocks

 

[jc2]

You're right, John. I usually see you in most of them.

 

[JohnKSa]

Yeah, right...

That's why I posted on this one--didn't want to break my streak...

 

[cratz2]

Honestly, I usually pass on such threads... but I had just been debating between two of the worst presidential candidates in recent memory so my blood pressure was already pretty far up.

Honestly, the 357 SIG is what it is... and nothing more. As effective as hot 9x19 loads and as effective as the 40S&W. Just another choice. Honestly, if you look at my usual posts on the 357 SIG, I usually say pretty much the positive things you've said in this thread. Lower round count than 9x19 and not as many bullet weights as either 40 or 357 Magnum.

Anyway, take care everyone and try not to be too disappointed in todays results.

 

[jc2]

John -

Yeah, right...

That's why I posted on this one--didn't want to break my streak...

You certainly did post in it, didn't you?

There's not much to dispute there, is there?

I noticed you posted early on in this thread--the third or fourth poster, right?

You also had a post or two in the other 357 SIG/.357 Mag thread that's running as well.

I guess you just find the stuff you post not very memorable?

 

[JohnKSa]

You certainly did post in it, didn't you?

Imagine that--just like I said I did!

I noticed you posted early on in this thread

Uhh, yeah, I guess I DID post on this thread--just like I said I did. (didn't we just do this? )

There's not much to dispute there, is there?

No... I guess there SURE isn't.

Well...I guess you caught me posting...the truth...

...what's supposed to happen now that you've pointed out the...ummm...accuracy of my posts?

(FWIW, this is actually becoming one of my MORE memorable posts.)