Multiple Attackers

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Good Ol' Boy

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Another video from John at ASP that shows us some of the variables in a multiple force encounter.

How the defender decides to fight is one issue, but also note that he clearly has a revolver, which means 5-6 rounds. There are FOUR attackers.

How to fight as well as a capacity are only two issues with this scenario, he also at some point lost control of his firearm with presumably rounds still in the cylinder.

Worthwhile thought and/or discussion for all of us that EDC.




 
Yeah, distance is key when you are the only one with a projectile weapon. Sprint back, yell forceful commands, start dropping them if they keep coming.

Distance will also help shot placement in this case...a lot easier to hit well at 3-5yds than at 1-2 as they are swinging a bat.

We can't know the building layout, but "Nike defense" out the back exit should have been an option. It was his business though.
 
That is a really interesting video for several reasons.

1) This is clearly no simple robbery. I don't know what those guys are after, but DANG, they're determined. So much for the idea that bad guys are cowards looking for easy prey. They know the guy has a gun, and he shoots one right at the start, seriously wounding him. Then shoots at a second one, apparently missing. And then shoots the third guy, obviously wounding him as well. This hardly phases the attackers. They're still pursuing (except for the one gut-shot fellow who decides to sit it out). Again, the motive here is unclear but VERY serious because death doesn't seem to be a concern for these guys.

There's a weird overall feel to this, like it's more of a confrontation than an intentional murder scenario. Not sure, again, if that's a cultural thing or what, but the attacking guys could easily have overpowered him if they'd bum rushed him in the first second or so. Instead there's a sort of milling around, "oh, no, after YOU," appearance to the thing. As though a relatively inexperienced group of local toughs are coming by to beat this man up, maybe teach a lesson (maybe he's not paying his extortion money, maybe he slept with someone he shouldn't have, who knows?), and don't really expect him to be armed. Then finding he's armed and willing to shoot, they make a sort of re-group effort and decide to tough it out. There certainly seems to be no plan for getting shot, and sitting it out bleeding into your own guts, or hobbling around clutching your leg doesn't seem like a good exit strategy.

2) What is up with the gun/ammo? I think I saw three shots fired, two hits, one miss. That revolver would hold at least five, and probably six. Perhaps there are a few more shots fired after the defender steps back out of the camera's view. That could explain the sudden rush the remaining attackers make toward his position. (If he fired and missed three more times.)

3) The two shots that hit were effective enough, though poorly placed. He does take those two guys out of the fight. Again, though, the two men in white really don't seem to care much. Whatever their beef with him is, the wounding and possible death of their two comrades doesn't deter them.

4) When you see four men approaching you with sticks and machetes, don't go out to greet them, and don't go hand-to-hand with one while the others close in. That would seem to not need to be said, but ...well, that's what this guy does. Perhaps there's a strong "don't shoot first" preference in that culture, I don't know. As the defensive instructor's voice-over says, you've got to use the great distance advantage of the gun. Verbal warnings if there's time, then fire if it's obvious they're still closing with lethal intent.

5) Yes, capacity matters. Whatever happened with the gun and ammo (3 shots? More? We don't know...) the defender had no way to engage his threats with the sort of response we in the west tend to preach, of multiple hits to center-of-mass. There was certainly plenty of time to have put three or four rounds into each attacker within the first five or six seconds but he didn't have the ammo to do so. While it's hard to get into these attackers' heads, even though seeing two of their pals shot didn't seem to phase them, advancing through a small volley of shots would have been a lot more intimidating. And, of course, more physically effective if they weren't psychologically deterred.

6) Again, the culture question. This defender does not seem to be very familiar with his weapon, nor have much of a clue how to use it to mount a serious defense. I have to assume that seeing events unfold something like this is what prompted guys like Col. Cooper, Reed, Chapman, Weaver etc. to start to try to come up with a practical method for effective pistol combat.
 
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The defender clearly had absolutely no clue how to fight - with a gun or without.

Presented with this scenario with a 6 shot revolver, you'd want to shoot, once, each person coming at you, then shoot two others once more apiece if they haven't broken their attack. Then hand to hand. Fighting people who have been shot is preferable to fighting uninjured people. Just remember not to use excessive force in the hands-on fight - prosecutors don't like that any more than they like anything else - only strike them until they stop striking back.

The distance he fired the first shot could've just as easily been a head shot.
 
I actually already watched this video. There are lots of things that I could say about it, but none of those things would be coming from someone who's ever experienced a potentially deadly self defense situation. So the only comment I have is this: He was not nearly decisive enough about how to deal with the situation. And I think that's exactly why they didn't care that he had a gun.
 
"...multiple force encounter..." Means you lose in this fantasy scenario.
"...people who have been shot..." Stop fighting and lose interest in any further fisticuffs or violent behaviour. Despite the nonsense seen in movies.
"...a sort of milling around..." As seen in every Hollywood movie fight. Appears the purpose of this video is to sell videos.
 
Ahhh, Sunray, I gather you didn't watch the video.

"...multiple force encounter..." Means you lose in this fantasy scenario.
Fantasy scenario? If you had watched the video you'd have comprehended that is is of security footage of something that really happened.

And also probably would have glommed onto why there was no necessity that the defender lose in these circumstances. In fact, seeing as he appears to have been able to flee from the remaining unwounded attackers, I guess I'd say he really didn't lose. But considering the attack as it really happened, even the six rounds in his revolver COULD have been decisively applied. And certainly any modern higher capacity handgun would have been a practically overwhelming response if properly used.

"...people who have been shot..." Stop fighting and lose interest in any further fisticuffs or violent behaviour. Despite the nonsense seen in movies.
One of them did. The other seemed a bit uncertain if he was still interested in fighting or not. Certainly this video -- of a real event, not a Hollywood movie -- did not support the idea that producing a gun and even shooting a few folks would dissuade them.

"...a sort of milling around..." As seen in every Hollywood movie fight. Appears the purpose of this video is to sell videos.
Refresh my memory...have you EVER see a Hollywood movie fight that looked anything at all like the behavior of these attackers?

Ok, right, first you have to go actually watch the film so your opinion becomes informed, but then once you've seen it, tell me that this "milling around" behavior looks like a crew of action movie bad-guys.
 
I watched with it muted, so I didn't hear the commentary, but based on the video of the encounter, the body language of the defender tells me he is unprepared and uninterested in killing any baddies. Besides inexperience, his constant hesitation tells me he knows the bad guys are in range, but he DOESN'T pull the trigger because he's afraid he'll accidentally kill them... not to mention the obvious (fear/indecision has frozen his mind). That's my interpretation without sound, at least.
 
I don't think this was staged, Sunray, so that shoots down your third premise right off the bat. (pun intended) As for premise #1; No, having that kind of attitude will cause you to lose. Keeping in the fight is the only way beside flight to prevail in this situation. Hence the term fight or flight. He did it halfway, which caused him injury. He plainly didn't know how to fight with or without a gun, and thought it would serve as a magic talisman. It did not, so he ran. In an ambush,(which this is) the correct response is to attack with speed and violence of action. Had he dropped the first guy with a head shot right away, the outcome might well have been different. As for premise #2, most do, you are right , but not all.
Very good assessment, everydaydefense. I watched both with and without sound and came to the same conclusion.
 
I watched both with and without sound and came to the same conclusion
Yeah, I don't think the instructor's voice-over gives any of us here much food for thought. While the points about keeping distance and being sufficiently armed are valid, they're kind of obvious.

The more important lessons are just what you're getting at: he lacks commitment and aggression. His body language gives off almost a Barney Fife vibe of "now boys, I don't want to have to shoot you! Now stop hitting me or I'm going to have to shoot one of you. Now, I'm serious! Look, BANG, I've shot you in the leg. Now, now, now, see? See how I've shot him? So go away and don't hit me any more! I'm serious! I'm really going to do it! ..." It's not compelling and not convincing.

Compounding that with his very ineffectual shooting, it's his fight to lose, and he's losing it.
 
Honestly, and to take this conversation to a whole different place probably, the strangest part of this to me is his third shot.

Notice he sees the guy in the striped shirt, who's not close enough to be the most immediate threat, and who is turning and heading back toward the street. The defender pauses, and then almost deliberately raises the gun and shoots that guy, apparently in the leg. Now the white shirt guys seem closer, and are certainly more directly facing him with raised weapons, but he chooses to shoot the striped shirt guy who's turning away.

There could be nothing to that, or some interpersonal dynamics going on we don't know. (Again, relating possibly to who these dudes are and what the cause of their beef is.)

But, the angle that sticks in my mind is one of Lt. Col. Dave Grossman's points in On Killing, which says that it is psychologically easier to cross the threshold of pulling a trigger on someone who is retreating than someone who is actively aggressive. (He bases this on a lot of information collected from various armed encounters, where face-to-face fighting yields far fewer casualties than do routs wherein the assailants who break and run are chased down and slaughtered.)

Not sure if there's anything real in that observation of this instance, but I found myself almost saying out loud, "Woah...why'd he shoot THAT guy?" Notice that immediately after he points the gun at one of the white shirt dudes (who's facing him) but doesn't fire. Interesting behavior.
 
That is a really interesting video for several reasons.

1) This is clearly no simple robbery. I don't know what those guys are after, but DANG, they're determined. So much for the idea that bad guys are cowards looking for easy prey. They know the guy has a gun, and he shoots one right at the start, seriously wounding him. Then shoots at a second one, apparently missing. And then shoots the third guy, obviously wounding him as well. This hardly phases the attackers. They're still pursuing (except for the one gut-shot fellow who decides to sit it out).

I think one of the biggest mistakes people make is believing that merely presenting your gun will make your attackers run every time. You can even post video evidence such as the OP and they still don't believe it.

The second sacred cow is that training isn't really necessary. This guy had a gun but didn't know how to fight with it. We don't see the end of the encounter but I bet they beat that guy with in an inch of his life
 
In the "for what it's worth" category, the backstory is known:

Two Youth Congress workers were killed and three persons sustained injuries when an Akali leader opened fire at the rival group following a scuffle in Abohar town of Fazilka district on Thursday evening.

The deceased were identified as Gurmit Singh (28) of Kundal village and Surinder Singh (29) of Abohar town. They died of bullet injuries.

Reports said Youth Akali Dal (YAD) leader Vishu Kamboj of Balluana in Abohar had a scuffle with Congress worker Jagmandeep Singh (37) a few days back. On Thursday evening, Jagmandeep along with his accomplices arrived at Vishu’s shop. It was learnt that Jagmandeep wanted to teach Vishu a lesson since the latter had hospitalised Prithi Raj, an Akali leader, after he was injured in a clash with Jagmandeep at the block development office on August 9.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/punja...bohar-clash/story-uVKm4giCUsIXPpHi9H9lNO.html

Not that it matters much, except to perhaps put some context to the rather stilted "monkey dance" behavior of the combatants, and perhaps why they didn't flee. These groups, and these men in particular, were regular combatants in political gang violence of this sort.


As has been pointed out elsewhere, you never want to assume you know and understand your attacker's mindset. Many "bad guys" are actually very experienced and comfortable in violent situations and don't necessarily run away just because you have a gun, or because you say you'll shoot, or even if you wound them. You may be a better shot. But there's a far-better-than-zero chance they're better at violence than you.
 
"...people who have been shot..." Stop fighting and lose interest in any further fisticuffs or violent behaviour. Despite the nonsense seen in movies.

I know that's false from first-hand experience.
 
I know that's false from first-hand experience.
I agree as experience dictates. Its to unpredictable, to many variables what happens when shooting a human being. You might get lucky and shoot them once and they run, they might drop dead on the spot, or they can fight it out for seconds, minutes or longer. The presents of certain drugs can make this worst for the defender. There are disabling shots that can be done that can help allow you to box people, that still wont mean they wont shoot you while they are on the floor while youre dumping into their buddies, and 4-1 odds are still questionable without using team dynamics. Best bet for survival would be to get control of the situation to employ fire power that increases survivability. Easier said then done.
 
If someone is concerned about potentially having to deal with "multiple attackers" (threats), trying to distill the tactics used down to just the "equipment" level can risk distracting someone from many critical considerations of a variety of potential "branchings" of such events.

For example, when I've faced 2-5 persons considering whether or not to attack me (threatening me, surrounding me making threatening statements, etc), the fact of whether my duty handgun was a revolver or a pistol wasn't the foremost thing on my mind. Distance, positioning, environmental problems (confined space, blocked movement, more dangerous "hazards" than the attackers, etc) and relevant tactics that could be immediately used were of much more concern to me. Relevant "tactics" and tools includes my own physical presence and demeanor, BTW.

A physical confrontation is still a physical confrontation, at the basic level, and having some understanding (and preferably, experience) with how group force(s) may often unfold can sometimes be pretty helpful.

How do people use clubs, bricks, knives, etc? How might they move as a group (together, as if orchestrated, or singly, virtually getting in the way of each other)?

What is their apparent purpose? Why are they there, in the first place?

Distance is almost always our "friend" when we're talking about handheld or bodily weapons (fists/feet).

Knowing how and when to create distance (like, LEAVE), and whether it's possible, isn't usually something most of us would probably want to leave to the last moment to consider.

Hoping to effectively (including accurately) employ a gun against any imminent deadly force threat is pretty important. That being the case, how much more important is it to consider the effective employment of it against more than 1 threat? Pretty important, right?

This is where familiarity, training and experience is usually considered beneficial.

The folks who sometimes seem to "default" to just thinking higher ammunition capacity is THE answer, rather than some prudent preparation, often seem to be the sort of folks who think that just flailing away with wildly swung fists, or making multiple wild kicks, might hopefully "solve" their self defense "problem".

Sure, some element of "luck" (for good or ill) often seems to make itself apparent.

Would you rather be lucky, or skilled?

Sure, I'd prefer, given my druthers, to have both in my corner.

If only one, though? Give me skill and experience.

Luck is literally leaving things to chance.

This thread's linked video incident? Obviously, there's a LOT of things the "defender" could've/should've done better or right. He's very lucky the "attackers" were crudely armed and so apparently disorganized, and perhaps not experienced (successfully, at any rate) in using any sort of cohesive group tactics/dynamics, especially when encountering any resistance to their "attack".
 
I agree ammo capacity isn't a real issue here despite the 4x attackers. He didn't even use all of the limited ammo he had (unless he short-loaded the revolver). Lack of decent tactics (distance, movement, and shot placement) is the fail.
 
Honestly, and to take this conversation to a whole different place probably, the strangest part of this to me is his third shot.

Notice he sees the guy in the striped shirt, who's not close enough to be the most immediate threat, and who is turning and heading back toward the street. The defender pauses, and then almost deliberately raises the gun and shoots that guy, apparently in the leg. Now the white shirt guys seem closer, and are certainly more directly facing him with raised weapons, but he chooses to shoot the striped shirt guy who's turning away.

We don't have audio in the clip- it's possible that third guy said something that got the guy with the gun in a shootin' mood.
 
You'd think four guys with long sticks and a bat comin' at ya would get you in a shootin' mood, but.....
Yeah, that would have done it for me.

I'm no practiced gunfighter, but at that distance I think I could have scored four COM hits even if I were wetting myself in fear. And I would have been walking backwards while doing it.
 
Lack of decent tactics (distance, movement, and shot placement) is the fail.


Several good comments already. Take out the most determined, or leader 1st, then the next most prominent threat. Anyone inside of 21 feet is priority unless a more dangerous weapon is present at a slightly greater distance.
Don't just look or aim for center mass hits, you also want center spine hits. Through the chest, side or whatever so you hit the spine. That's how you stop the BG.
 
The first time I watched it, with the back story unknown, it looked more like
a thug's "how NOT to do it " video.
 
You'd think four guys with long sticks and a bat comin' at ya would get you in a shootin' mood, but.....

Hahaha! One would think. Still, something changed. Either one of the attackers said something or the slow-turning gears in the mind of the guy with the gun finally clicked into place and he fired.
 
That was an interesting video, it didn't look like the fella with the revolver had much of an option to run, but, I would have tried that first. I wouldn't think running into a situation with 5-6 rounds on four guys would be a good plan, but, not a terrible exit strategy.

I read a book called "monster" about crip gang banger "tookie". He mentioned saving "exit" rounds...basically not using all of your ammo, having some in reserve to make a good hedge against meeting someone at a door who is giving your enemy aid/ someone pursuing you. Gave me allot to think about, it's a good read. A good bit of info from a guy who had probably shot and been shot at more than allot of decorated non-civilians I would wager.
 
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