A Recent Incident Involving Shooting in Self Defense

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Kleanbore

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This is not about capacity.

It is not about "multiple attackers".

It tell sus something about handgun wounding effectiveness, about how rapidly one may need to shoot in self defense, and about how many hits may be required. I think it also tells us something about how vioent criminal actors may not act rationally.

The single attacker was armed with a knife.

I just watched a combination of two videos with audio of an officer-involved shooting. It is available to platinum members on the Law of Self Defense website.
with .

The first video was taken by the bodycam of a police oficer who is being approached by a man walking with knife in hand. The officer commands the man to drop the knife--several times. The man does not comply.

The officer waits until the man is close enough to frighten the viewer. He then fires seven rounds, very rapidly--as rapidly as I have been trained to do.

The assailant dopes to the ground and flails around before stopping.

We change to the bodycam of a second officer who had been approaching from the side. The first officer, who had holstered his firearm, possibly with the intention of drawing a Taser, has been grabbed from behind by the attacker, who still has a knife in his hand.

The first officer is in extreme peril, and in order to save him, the second officer is forced to shoot to save him while the assailant is holding him. He does so, firing four times rapidly. That's a total of eleven rounds fired.

The fight is over.

We can make informed decisions from this.
 
This one brings to mind another incident from some time back An officer came epon a pedestrian who was menacing some people with a big stick. When told to stop, the man started walking toward the officer, ignoring repeated commands to stop. The officer was forced to shoot, firing slowly while backing up as the man continued to advance. It took twelve hits to down him.

I don't think that either of these similar scenarios is representative of anying I am likely to encounter. Unlike the sworn officers, I need not engage awould try to evade, although if either assailant broke into a run that story would change.

I do wonder, however, about the cpacity of my carry pied--eight plus one. I think I would prefer ten plus one.
 
A beltfed full auto pocket nine is still a pocket nine. The round is decent but it has some tradeoffs as compared to others. The extremely short barrels of pocket gun don’t help it at all, and quite often the full sized duty guns with considerably longer barrels and magazine capacity don’t effectively stop an attacker. I carry a 7shot pocket 9 and feel very underarmed if it were to ever be needed, but I expect to never need it, and make a point of trying to not need it.
 
This reminds me of a case years ago where a man walking with his girlfriend was accosted by several others. I’ll call him the Defender. It went something like this. (My recollections being what they are, the details are now muddied by time, but here goes...)

Walking along a sidewalk, the Defender noticed a van pass slowly on the street. It changed directions and passed by slowly again, the driver giving the Defender and his girlfriend a good looking over before the van stopped on the street ahead of them. Two men exited the van and approached the couple rapidly, at least one of them drawing a gun from his waistband once they had closed to within a dozen feet or so. The Defender shoved his girlfriend aside (through hedges, as I recall), then pulled his own gun, an officer’s sized 1911, loaded with seven rounds.

The Defender shot the gun-wielding villain twice in the upper torso, didn’t like the lack of immediate effect, so shot him in the head, dropping him. The second villain pulled a gun, so the Defender shot three more times, hitting him twice, causing that man to drop his gun and flee, then noticed another villain, who had earlier been deposited on the sidewalk behind them, running to the van where the driver gave the Defender a disgusted look before driving away.

Afterward, the Defender noted that he only had one round left in his pistol, had fired three times to stop the first villain, three more times to wound the second villain and send him fleeing, yet still had at least two unwounded villains to potentially deal with. And only the one round remaining. He also noted that he carried no spare magazine and that, even if he’d had one, he would rather not have had to reload during a life-and-death encounter.

The Defender even posted a link to a local news story covering the event, though he recounted the event only after the legal processes had ended.

His take-aways: even two good hits with the “man stopping” .45 ACP failed to stop the first villain, and his assessment of that failure expedited the third shot that put the first villain out of the fight. The “assessment” time between the failure to stop and the third shot was almost instant because the consequence of hesitation was unacceptably dire. Also, two hits to the second villain did not prevent him from running away, and would not have prevented him from continuing aggression had he chosen to do so.

That story, and many others, leads to this observation: you have no control over how many rounds it may take to stop a fight, but you do have control over how many you bring to the fight.

As I recall, the Defender also noted that, in the future, he would carry a spare magazine. That, by the way, was also something the Los Angeles homeowner wished he’d had the night two armed robbers accosted him on his doorstep. The man carried a Glock 26, loaded with ten rounds. That interview can be seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YggjBXIxFck

Those things said, here are two more stories.

First

After a morning of shooting at our local range, my wife and I stopped in a local restaurant for a nice Mexican meal. At a table near us sat about eight or ten Spanish-speaking construction workers. I thought nothing of it. They looked at us from time to time. I looked at them from time to time. About halfway through our meal, my wife leaned toward me and whispered that they were talking about getting rid of me and taking her. She speaks Spanish. I don’t. We were in a busy and popular place.

Second

One of my neighbors was a hell of a jogger. She was fast and fit and ran long distances. One day she was jogging along a busy street beside her neighborhood. A van pulled off that street and into the neighborhood, cutting off her path. The van’s side door opened and, as she put it, a Mexican guy jumped out and ran toward her. Notably, traffic on the street stopped. Observers got on their phones and immediately called 911. The jogger sprinted away at a pace the Mexican guy could not match. He jumped back into the van and they drove out the neighborhood and away from her.

Police pulled the van over and discovered the three occupants were Mexican, two of them had been deported multiple times, and one of them was a known gang member. The police also said that Mexican gangs liked to place members with construction crews because of the mobility such work afforded.

The jogger, the police, and everyone who dialed 911 believed the guys in the van were intent on kidnapping the jogger. The jogger claimed she was not flustered because she was a hell of a runner, and she could easily outrun the guy who gave chase. When asked if she carried pepper spray or a gun, she said no. She didn’t want the extra weight, and worrying about kidnapping or assault was a bit like worrying about being struck by lightning.

Last point

One of my past instructors, a retired law enforcement fellow who had worked years under cover, said that he carried a Browning Hi-Power on the job rather than his issued revolver for this reason: you’re always alone, and you’re always outnumbered.

So, once again, my conclusions are these: You don’t have control over when or where you might need a gun, you don’t have control over how many rounds it may take to stop a fight, but you do have control over how many rounds you bring, and you certainly have control over how you respond to a threat.

Story 1, the Defender had little time and distance to respond to a deadly threat, but used effectively what he had.

Story 2, same as the first.

Story 3, I had a Glock 19 and a spare magazine in a carrier on my belt. My wife had her S&W M&P compact, 12+1. We finished our meal and left before the other guys did.

Story 4, sometimes running away is possible, and it works.

Make of these anecdotes what you will, but to state the obvious, practice with what you have. Understand what you can do with the tools at hand, and maintain an awareness of your options.
 
I don't have a pocket gun of any kind. But the gun I carry most is a Sig P6 along with a spare mag so the most I have is 17 rounds. When I read or hear about such shootings it makes me wonder if you could ever carry "enough". Are these types of encounters the result of the shooter under stress not making central nervous system hits? I, and probably most everyone else, don't truly know what I will be capable of under stress. And I consider myself a respectable shot. I can only hope that I will never be in a situation to find out. I will just try and avoid and if the time comes do the best I can with my chosen carry piece.
 
Bill_in_TR said:
I don't have a pocket gun of any kind. But the gun I carry most is a Sig P6 along with a spare mag so the most I have is 17 rounds. When I read or hear about such shootings it makes me wonder if you could ever carry "enough". Are these types of encounters the result of the shooter under stress not making central nervous system hits? I, and probably most everyone else, don't truly know what I will be capable of under stress. And I consider myself a respectable shot. I can only hope that I will never be in a situation to find out. I will just try and avoid and if the time comes do the best I can with my chosen carry piece.
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As I recall, the Defender noted that the second villain did not appear phased by what had happened to the first, but once he had been shot himself, he began to move. The second and third shots made him move faster. Part of the Defender's stress was, (a) drawing his own firearm did not deter the villains, (b) shooting the first one twice did not deter him, at which point the Defender's own anxiety increased, prompting the third shot to the first villain's head, (c) he had been unaware of the third villain, on the sidewalk behind him, at which point he realized another three-shot dose might not solve the problem, since he only had one round left.

I believe that, during the time of the shooting, the closest distance was about six feet. The longest was about eight. I don't recall the Defender mentioning anything about CNS targets until he observed the failure of efficacy after the first two shots. I also recall the Defender saying that he was a practiced shooter, but don't think other details were provided.
 
I have never encountered a Tweaker who was the least bit impressed by the fact that I was armed. Quite a few of them dared me to shoot them.

I mean, these were petty criminals. They (mostly) weren't trying to attack or rob me but the fact I was armed didn't phase them in the least.

I only ever had to draw on one guy and he turned around and walked away. Obviously, he knew I wasn't a cop and that I wasn't trying to apprehend him.

I think most of them don't really believe you'll shoot.
 
Bill_in_TR said:
I, and probably most everyone else, don't truly know what I will be capable of under stress. And I consider myself a respectable shot. I can only hope that I will never be in a situation to find out
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This is certainly a common sentiment. But it is so unnecessary.

If you don't know how capable you are, then figure it out! Train with others who are better than you are. Include stressful situations in your training program. Try a little competition. Prove (with targets and timers) and a variety of drills whether you are a "respectable shot." Or that you aren't.

Then you'll know. And you won't have to "hope".
 
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luzyfuerza said:
This is certainly a common sentiment. But it is so unnecessary.

If you don't know how capable you are, then figure it out! Train with others who are better than you are. Include stressful situations in your training program. Try a little competition. Prove (with targets and timers) and a variety of drills whether you are a "respectable shot." Or that you aren't.

Then you'll know. And you won't have to "hope".
Click to expand...
You still don’t know till it’s “gut check time”. All the training builds the muscle memory but your first gunfight is one hell of a learning experience.
 
Art30/30 said:
You still don’t know till it’s “gut check time”. All the training builds the muscle memory but your first gunfight is one hell of a learning experience.
Click to expand...
Yes, all of the training in the world, tens of thousands of rounds on the range, professional instruction and coaching, world class force on force training will only get you so far. That’s why for a training program to be as complete as possible it has to have stress inoculation training. The military uses training events like the confidence course, the 200 foot night rappel in Ranger school etc. to place people in actual danger in a controlled environment so they can work through performing through fear. This can’t be trained any other way. There are those who say competition accomplishes the same thing but I don’t agree with that. The stress of competition is nothing like the stress of knowing that if you don’t perform to standard you can be severely injured or killed.
 
Jeff White said:
Yes, all of the training in the world, tens of thousands of rounds on the range, professional instruction and coaching, world class force on force training will only get you so far. That’s why for a training program to be as complete as possible it has to have stress inoculation training. The military uses training events like the confidence course, the 200 foot night rappel in Ranger school etc. to place people in actual danger in a controlled environment so they can work through performing through fear. This can’t be trained any other way. There are those who say competition accomplishes the same thing but I don’t agree with that. The stress of competition is nothing like the stress of knowing that if you don’t perform to standard you can be severely injured or killed.
Click to expand...
I trained for 5 years in the Army Infantry fought 2 (20 months actually) years in Iraq in 2004 and 2005. You see all sorts of reactions to a firefight when it’s someone’s first. My first I remember shooting at a haji running across the street. I shot four times and he stumbled behind a courtyard wall. I looked at my squad leader and said “I think I got him”. My SL replied “I would hope so!! You shot him 15 times”.

Well my “four” shots were in fact 13. And I hit him with a bunch, he was leaking all over when we searched his body. I had no idea I fired that many.
 
Without having any personal experience, comparing the stress induced in Ranger school or other special forces groups is way beyond what the civilian or even average military or law enforcement officer is going to experience. Competition is not life or death yet many vets and leos I've competed with have said they felt far more stress then they would ever have guessed they would experience while competing. Of course not life or death stress.
 
Smokin Gator said:
Without having any personal experience, comparing the stress induced in Ranger school or other special forces groups is way beyond what the civilian or even average military or law enforcement officer is going to experience. Competition is not life or death yet many vets and leos I've competed with have said they felt far more stress then they would ever have guessed they would experience while competing. Of course not life or death stress.
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There are plenty of ways for a private citizen to do stress inoculation training. Adventure sports, skydiving (not the carnival ride of a tandem jump), scuba diving, climbing, rappelling, granted most of these activities require one to be in halfway decent physical shape but the military is not the only way to experience that. BTW the military training events I used as examples are not special forces training events. Soldiers are introduced to the confidence course with its high obstacles in basic training.
 
And some adrenaline junkies who aren't stressed at all by skydiving or scuba diving (unless they experience a shoot not opening) might be more stressed by competing with other people, whether it's shooting or something else.
 
Not having seen the video in the original post I am curious as to why the first officer holstered his pistol when the assailant still had control of the knife even if he was down, and how did the assailant manage to get behind the first officer?
Not criticizing the officers just trying to understand the chain of events.
 
I don't think stress inoculation is universal across activities. Most stress comes from fear of the unknown and not having experience in reacting to those situations. I've seen cops who are flatline calm in dangerous situations completely fall apart when called to do public speaking for example.

A high fitness level will help mitigate some of the physical affects that stress can have on the body but it can only go so far.
 
Art30/30 said:
I trained for 5 years in the Army Infantry fought 2 (20 months actually) years in Iraq in 2004 and 2005. You see all sorts of reactions to a firefight when it’s someone’s first. My first I remember shooting at a haji running across the street. I shot four times and he stumbled behind a courtyard wall. I looked at my squad leader and said “I think I got him”. My SL replied “I would hope so!! You shot him 15 times”.

Well my “four” shots were in fact 13. And I hit him with a bunch, he was leaking all over when we searched his body. I had no idea I fired that many.
Click to expand...
The reminds me of a story I heard from Evan Marshall, on his first shooting, involving the Black Panthers. At the end of it, he was asked how many rounds he had fired, and he said three. When they took his revolver, he had three left out of eighteen, having emptied and reloaded twice with no recollection whatsoever. Paraphrased, of course, I read that a long time ago.
I haven't yet had to face that elephant and pray I don't, but the one time I DID draw on someone, I was on target/off target in a split second, as I realized the kid pretending to shoot me as I stood by my armored truck had, in fact, empty hands and was yelling "Bang, bang!" The kid walked away laughing, and I had the shakes all the way back to Tucson.
 
armoredman said:
The reminds me of a story I heard from Evan Marshall, on his first shooting, involving the Black Panthers. At the end of it, he was asked how many rounds he had fired, and he said three. When they took his revolver, he had three left out of eighteen, having emptied and reloaded twice with no recollection whatsoever. Paraphrased, of course, I read that a long time ago.
I haven't yet had to face that elephant and pray I don't, but the one time I DID draw on someone, I was on target/off target in a split second, as I realized the kid pretending to shoot me as I stood by my armored truck had, in fact, empty hands and was yelling "Bang, bang!" The kid walked away laughing, and I had the shakes all the way back to Tucson.
Click to expand...

Now THAT is messed up!!
 
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The idea of using competition to introduce stress is brought up often. Maybe there is something wrong with my mentality but I don't feel any stress during the likes of IDPA competition. There are no consequences to be stressed about. I try to do as well as I can. But at the end of the event I just feel like I enjoyed myself. If I did well that makes me happy. If not then I try to reflect on what I need to practice to improve. I don't get the least bit stressed about it. Everybody around me is chatting, smiling and commenting on the course.

But if I am faced with live person(s) trying to kill me or do serious harm it is a whole new experience. Maybe some of these training courses do a better job of introducing stress to some level but I am 77 and I would have difficulty with them and they aren't in my budget anyway. But even there, knowing there are no real consequences, what is to stress about. I enjoy the likes of IDPA competition and if I could attend a fairly intense course I feel I would enjoy myself there.

Like I said maybe my mentality is wired wrong.
 
"Aggressive action by a determined adversary can be stopped reliably and immediately using a handgun only by a shot that disrupts the brain or upper spinal cord.

"Even the most disruptive heart wound cannot be relied upon to prevent aggression before 10 to 15 seconds has elapsed.

"Given this limitation, massive bleeding from holes in the heart or major blood vessels in the torso causing circulatory collapse is the fastest and only other reliable mechanism available to the handgun user."

Dr. Martin L. Fackler, Colonel, U.S. Army
Wound Ballistics Laboratory
U.S. Army Letterman Army Institute of Research
San Francisco, CA 94129-6800
Wound Ballistic Workshop
FBI Academy
September 15-17, 1987
“9mm vs. .45 Auto”
p. 8
 
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