cdb1
Member
.358 Winchester just doesn’t get me all hot and bothered. A Henry Long Ranger rebarreled to .338 Federal would though.
.358 Winchester?
- Thread starter Goneshoot'n
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I'll start by saying in no way do I think the recoil is unbearable or that the 358 isn't enough for larger American game but those ideas are why it isn't popular.
Because it's a tweener too big for whitetails and not enough for big bears in the court of public opinion.
Because it's a tweener too big for whitetails and not enough for big bears in the court of public opinion.
1stmarine
Member
The nosler 225gr partition might work better for you. Good ballistics too.
Nature Boy
Member
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- 8,288
Don’t have any parttions but I do have 225g Sierra Gamekings. Did some abbreviated load testing today and found 48g of VV140 to be suitable so I’m going with that
1stmarine
Member
Hi.
The SGK is a good bullet but I would leave it for the largest and toughest game.
I left this one at the side for penetration because while developing the hunting loads I observed that it is very stout and will not expand well.
At impact speeds as high as 2100fps (give or take) it failed to expand after going through a gallon jug of water and then into the media.
This is my test for something I can can use in soft skin animals like white tail, mule dear and small bears.
So keep this in mind because it will restrict your range based on the high impact velocities it requires.
IMO I think this would work great in the Norma Magnum, WSM/Sambar and other magnums but even for the whelen I would be cautious unless
it is average range for something very tough and large like defense in close encounters. But even for that one has other bullets that hit like demolition hammers.
Not a bad bullet at all, I just feel it is more specialized that what it seems. Maybe you want to test it first to see how it works for you. I am just giving the
heads up on my findings.
Sierra's warning:
"In handguns, while the 225 grain #2850 Spitzer Boat Tail GameKing bullet is not recommended for hunting due to its extreme toughness, it is still useful to the handgunner. Those hearty silhouette shooters who can't get away from a favorite 357 Herrett or 35 Remington have a streamlined, high ballistic coefficient, low crosswind sensitivity bullet to use at 200 meters."
https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/2850/358-dia-225-gr-SBT
Llama Bob
member
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Far more moose have been taken with 6.5x55 than with any other caliber. In 2016 about 1600 moose were taken in Maine. Something like 100,000 were taken in Sweden.
In Sweden, like in Finland, .308 is by far the most common caliber for moose, followed by .30-06. 6.5x55 "Swede" has always been fairly popular but not overwhelmingly common. The annual number of filled moose tags has been around 87,000 a year for Sweden and 50,000 for Finland. I couldn't find statistics for Russia or Baltic countries but I'd hazard a guess that the numbers are close to those of Scandinavia combined and 7.62x54R is still #1 in those regions.
Otherwise a great analogy but moose was literally on the brink of extinction in Scandinavia/Fennoscandia from early 19th to the beginning of 20th century. The low point was 1901 when less than 2000 moose were harvested in Sweden and Finland combined, and even that was after a total hunting ban in Sweden between 1868 and 1896. The numbers started to increase to anywhere near what they are today between late 1940's and 1960's. The high point was 1982 when 174,709 moose were downed in Sweden alone, long after .308 had taken the nordic hunting rifle market by a storm.
So... based on these historical statistics I'd be rather certain that 6.5x55 hasn't taken anywhere near as many moose as .308, or probably even .30-06. In addition to that, during the first half of 20th century a very diverse selection of rifles and calibers were common in moose hunting and 6.5x55 was just one caliber among many others, from 7x57 and 8x57 Mauser all the way to 10.4x47mmR, and not necessarily even the most common choice at the time.
However, getting back to the subject, .358Win has always been rare in Scandinavia. I honestly can't remember seeing a single box of ammo or a rifle chambered for it for sale anywhere in at least 30 years.
1stmarine
Member
Again,
If you talk to hunters and visit the forums you will find out the 6.5 is not in the list of popular calibers/guns for moose.
I do this with my .35 Remington, the little brother to the .358 Winchester.
Mr. Hill
Member
+1 on firstmarine’s comment about Sierra gamekings, they are good for thin skinned animals like deer, but not good for the bigger animals with thicker hides. Although I don’t know how a heavy gameking would do. JMHO.
cdb1
Member
So I was wrong even about Sweden. Why does Sweden have so many moose compared to Norway and Finland hq? Is it habitat?
Swedish moose population is huge, probably because Sweden is geographically quite a bit larger than Norway or Finland. Norway has a lot of mountainous terrain, Finland is home to northwestern edge of west russian wolf population so moose densities per square mile are slightly below those of Sweden. What we have in abundance in southern Finland is whitetails, as an introduced species from the US, and they're everywhere to the point of being a nuisance to agriculture. You can't even plant flowers and turn around for a minute before there's a big fat whitetail munching on them...
cdb1
Member
Thanks hq.
1stmarine
Member
I think you mean the other way around right? the SGKs spbt are very stout bullets.
The partition is a lot more consistent even at much lower impact speeds.
I am also using them in the 35 Gunner for the AR15....
Elkins45
Member
If you’re a bullet caster it’s easy to develop a real love for the 358 Win. You can get almost all of the designed performance the round is capable of with a bullet you poured yourself.
A 250 grain flat point at 358 speed will surely put the smackdown on anything I’m going to be hunting.
A 250 grain flat point at 358 speed will surely put the smackdown on anything I’m going to be hunting.
Mr. Hill
Member
A game king isn’t a bonded bullet, so it really isn’t stout in my mind. Very good for deer, not good for larger animals.
1stmarine
Member
Like I said, I tested this bullet and didn't get the consistency in expansion I want for deer at various impact speeds.
at 2100fps one doesn't get any expansion that might lead to pin whole wounding.
I am sure is ok for the largest toughest game and penetration and/or a magnum or whelen at close range but
I don't want to shoot a white tail with those rounds or HP loads or I might well chop it in two halves.
This was a surprise to me because is not like the same SGK bullet in 30 cal for example.
That is why I test them and use them as required by intended the animal / hunt and
I also follow the manufactures initial recommendations if they have them.
What I got is in line with what Sierra says about this bullet...
"This bullet has a heavy, double-tapered jacket drawn to very tight tolerances and a special alloy core for deep penetration and good expansion on heavy game."
"In handguns, while the 225 grain #2850 Spitzer Boat Tail GameKing bullet is not recommended for hunting due to its extreme toughness,..."
https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/2850/358-dia-225-gr-SBT
In this case a 180gr TTSX at higher impact speeds will be a lot more consistent for a soft animal. They fully activate upon entry like 1" or so and will not deflect
or break when hitting bone. IMO this bullet is very good and will work like a 150gr in a 308 but with more momentum and section whereas the Barnes in 180gr
is too heavy for a 308. They can be launched at 2800fps and this is how they excel, with speed.
But a cheaper 200gr FTX or speer will work just fine.
There is also an imported bullet made by GS customs that is the 225gr HV solid that can be put close to 2600fps and they are also pretty consistent. the only rub is a 11-12 twist is needed. But there are also 200gr and plenty of other bullets.
I am also courious about the 200gr Speer TMJ in 357 that I got for 12cents each in bulk for practice for 358 and 35 gunner in the AR.
I want to see how that budget bullet with the jacket and flat metplat behaves in tests. It should break but I get this feeling the lead core is good for deer
too due to the high grain.
at 2100fps one doesn't get any expansion that might lead to pin whole wounding.
I am sure is ok for the largest toughest game and penetration and/or a magnum or whelen at close range but
I don't want to shoot a white tail with those rounds or HP loads or I might well chop it in two halves.
This was a surprise to me because is not like the same SGK bullet in 30 cal for example.
That is why I test them and use them as required by intended the animal / hunt and
I also follow the manufactures initial recommendations if they have them.
What I got is in line with what Sierra says about this bullet...
"This bullet has a heavy, double-tapered jacket drawn to very tight tolerances and a special alloy core for deep penetration and good expansion on heavy game."
"In handguns, while the 225 grain #2850 Spitzer Boat Tail GameKing bullet is not recommended for hunting due to its extreme toughness,..."
https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/2850/358-dia-225-gr-SBT
In this case a 180gr TTSX at higher impact speeds will be a lot more consistent for a soft animal. They fully activate upon entry like 1" or so and will not deflect
or break when hitting bone. IMO this bullet is very good and will work like a 150gr in a 308 but with more momentum and section whereas the Barnes in 180gr
is too heavy for a 308. They can be launched at 2800fps and this is how they excel, with speed.
But a cheaper 200gr FTX or speer will work just fine.
There is also an imported bullet made by GS customs that is the 225gr HV solid that can be put close to 2600fps and they are also pretty consistent. the only rub is a 11-12 twist is needed. But there are also 200gr and plenty of other bullets.
I am also courious about the 200gr Speer TMJ in 357 that I got for 12cents each in bulk for practice for 358 and 35 gunner in the AR.
I want to see how that budget bullet with the jacket and flat metplat behaves in tests. It should break but I get this feeling the lead core is good for deer
too due to the high grain.
1stmarine
Member
I agree. A lot of folks will find cast bullets in 310gr and molds for 300-320gr with hollow point for subsonic. These will require a faster twist so better plan ahead. Even the 250 solids will not work with some of the
old 16 twist.
I though about casting but I am not going to do it because with the cost of some bulk deals I found it doesn't make much sense.
200gr FMJ and TMJ 357 bullets is all I need for bulk shooting.
One can pulverize varmints with the cheap 125gr-150gr fmj pistol loads too. The main thing is to find something that will not break apart due to the massive speeds.
The 140gr ftx has been holding together as well as a few others so, so far so good up to 2800fps. cheap shooting and I can see the amount of explosion on the
back stop so if you get a coyote with one of those I am sure will blow a see through hole on it. Too broad for deer too and might ruin meat.
I have to do some testing with them to confirm.
VoodooMountain
Member
Sierra philosophy is more based in fragmentation than expansion and accordingly their bullets often have stouter jackets that don’t do much unless velocity, bone, and/or hydraulic shock upset the bullet.
I believe this is what 1st marine is experiencing.
This is also why Sierra told me their 110gr 308 bullet would work just fine in deer if muzzle velocity was kept at 2800~ fps and under, even on shoulder shots.
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1stmarine
Member
I am not an expert in ballistics but I take my time to test what I want to use like most of you probably do.
IMO the 358 Winchester as well as the 35 Whelen provide many benefits.
A) Use of popular and affordable current and past service brass. Plentiful and many times free at the recycle bin.
B) Use of popular powders that one can share with other calibers (consolidation)
C) 358 very decent assortment of hunting bullets including premium bullets to harvest anything walking on this planet.
D) Decent ballistics for the amount of grain one can send downrange.
E) They provide magnum like killing power. They are rated for anything from white tail to hunting heavy game including dangerous game
yet they do it with simplicity and half of the cost or less of other popular magnums.
F) They have the advantage to use 9mm and 357 target and hunting bullets for anything from plinking to hunting. This type of versatility
allows to share bullets of popular pistol calibers for economic shooting and also consolidation. 9mm will require a smaller size button and crimp.
G) Both qualify as a simple yet capable brush caliber with the heaviest bullets.
H) They are not long range calibers but they will kill with authority out to 500 yards with careful selection of bullets and powders.
I) An experience reloader can do so many things with it. It can be used for bird hunting by making a 35 cal insert and using sabots and
bird load. Not as powerful as the .410 shotshell but will actually work for an emergency. Same as the 357 maximum.
I became more fan of this bore after experiencing how fast it kills. Also as part of a consolidation effort where I got rid of certain
calibers like the 338,.410 and 45 and now I share the same powders and bullets for several popular pistol casings and makes
things much easier for me.... 9mm, 357SIG, 357mag, 35Gunner (Wildcat for the AR15), 358 Winchester, Whelen, Sambar, etc...
I made sure that in my formula there is nothing walking this planet that might need killing that I cannot tackle one way or another
with authority.
IMO the 35 and 375 bores are the last bores that make most sense in terms of ballistics performance to weight ratio. Just look at the
assortments and average the bullets and what they are for w/o getting into very specialized calibers and loads, some also very expensive.
The 338 federal is also a nice caliber but it doesn't give you the type of options and versatility the 35 bore does for the reasons explained
above.
I also like the 375 caliber but if you look at bullet assortment alone and the fact that one can use 9mm/357 bullets and virtually free brass
then the 35 is hard to pass. These calibers are proven meat factories and shoot flatter and hit harder than much heavier loads
in larger bores.
There are 3 basic parameters that I use where these 35 calibers score really well.
- Trajectories are pretty acceptable
- Substantial momentum on the target that is the result of grain plus you have decent SD and frontal section.
- Good range at impact speeds where comma (HS) can be induced ... normally around 2100fps but more with smaller caliber and less with these.
I rather work all the tools so rather than just relying on wounding I like to have the punch to induce that shock. We all make mistakes plus I am
not really happy hurting an animal or making slow kills.
If you feel the 358 is not enough for some reason then consider the 35 whelen. I cannot really understand why they are not more popular
but these days marketing and internet seems more important than facts and long track records, I guess.
IMO these are easy, affordable and popular calibers among true hunters. No BS here.
...btw... I also have the 358/300 WSM / Sambar but I am afraid if I shoot that a lot my molars might come loose.
Sorry for the long post. I hope this makes sense.
IMO the 358 Winchester as well as the 35 Whelen provide many benefits.
A) Use of popular and affordable current and past service brass. Plentiful and many times free at the recycle bin.
B) Use of popular powders that one can share with other calibers (consolidation)
C) 358 very decent assortment of hunting bullets including premium bullets to harvest anything walking on this planet.
D) Decent ballistics for the amount of grain one can send downrange.
E) They provide magnum like killing power. They are rated for anything from white tail to hunting heavy game including dangerous game
yet they do it with simplicity and half of the cost or less of other popular magnums.
F) They have the advantage to use 9mm and 357 target and hunting bullets for anything from plinking to hunting. This type of versatility
allows to share bullets of popular pistol calibers for economic shooting and also consolidation. 9mm will require a smaller size button and crimp.
G) Both qualify as a simple yet capable brush caliber with the heaviest bullets.
H) They are not long range calibers but they will kill with authority out to 500 yards with careful selection of bullets and powders.
I) An experience reloader can do so many things with it. It can be used for bird hunting by making a 35 cal insert and using sabots and
bird load. Not as powerful as the .410 shotshell but will actually work for an emergency. Same as the 357 maximum.
I became more fan of this bore after experiencing how fast it kills. Also as part of a consolidation effort where I got rid of certain
calibers like the 338,.410 and 45 and now I share the same powders and bullets for several popular pistol casings and makes
things much easier for me.... 9mm, 357SIG, 357mag, 35Gunner (Wildcat for the AR15), 358 Winchester, Whelen, Sambar, etc...
I made sure that in my formula there is nothing walking this planet that might need killing that I cannot tackle one way or another
with authority.
IMO the 35 and 375 bores are the last bores that make most sense in terms of ballistics performance to weight ratio. Just look at the
assortments and average the bullets and what they are for w/o getting into very specialized calibers and loads, some also very expensive.
The 338 federal is also a nice caliber but it doesn't give you the type of options and versatility the 35 bore does for the reasons explained
above.
I also like the 375 caliber but if you look at bullet assortment alone and the fact that one can use 9mm/357 bullets and virtually free brass
then the 35 is hard to pass. These calibers are proven meat factories and shoot flatter and hit harder than much heavier loads
in larger bores.
There are 3 basic parameters that I use where these 35 calibers score really well.
- Trajectories are pretty acceptable
- Substantial momentum on the target that is the result of grain plus you have decent SD and frontal section.
- Good range at impact speeds where comma (HS) can be induced ... normally around 2100fps but more with smaller caliber and less with these.
I rather work all the tools so rather than just relying on wounding I like to have the punch to induce that shock. We all make mistakes plus I am
not really happy hurting an animal or making slow kills.
If you feel the 358 is not enough for some reason then consider the 35 whelen. I cannot really understand why they are not more popular
but these days marketing and internet seems more important than facts and long track records, I guess.
IMO these are easy, affordable and popular calibers among true hunters. No BS here.
...btw... I also have the 358/300 WSM / Sambar but I am afraid if I shoot that a lot my molars might come loose.
Sorry for the long post. I hope this makes sense.
Last edited:
Chuck R.
Member
I killed a 5x4 Elk with two .358 225 grain Sierra Game Kings out of a .350 REM mag at 2730FPS (Muzzle) at a distance of about 180 yards. Both bullets penetrated to the off side (you could feel them just under the hide) and expanded perfectly. Should have never bothered with the 2nd shot, but he didn't show signs of being hit. Went another 50 yds and fell over. Could have covered both bullets with a T-cup saucer after passing through the ribs and lungs.
Chuck
SwampWolf
Member
Great photos never get boring.
SwampWolf
Member
I find it interesting that moose are called elk in many parts of Europe.
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