Cartridge Conversion Question

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krinko

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OK, so I've got this Pietta, a conversion cylinder and 194 of 200 black powder Goex .45 Colt cartridges.
It's 194 cartridges because I shot six of them late last year and after these six the fouling caused the cylinder axis to seize, which finished the range day.

413725129.jpg

So, what can I do to make this pistol work with these BP rounds? What did they do in 1872?

Please, this is already up at another forum and the first two replies were:
1.Shoot Trailboss.
2.Pull the cylinder axis and rub off the fouling or shoot Trailboss.
Please don't hit me with the Trailboss stick again.

Custer didn't lose Little Bighorn because all the revolvers had to be dismounted every six shots, did he? There must be a way!
-----krinko
 
Try LOTS of bore butter on the cylinder pin. Try dropping a drop of ballistol on the joint of the cylinder and the pin/frame between cylinders full. Otherwise I don't know. In 1872 they didn't use drop in conversion cylinders, for one thing.
 
The 1858 Remington has a small cylinder pin and fouling can make cylinder rotation stiff after a couple of shots. You need to lube the cylinder pin and the front bearing surface on the cylinder with something that will keep the fouling soft. I use a 50/50 mix of Ballistol and water. I put a drop of the mixture on the place where the cylinder pin goes into the frame. I also wipe the cylinder pin with it when I withdraw it to change cylinders. A drop of it inside the cylinder axis itself helps as well. Trail Boss may actually produce a bit too much pressure in a .45 Colt conversion cylinder as it is very fast burning. If you intend on reloading those Goex black powder shells, stick with lighter .45 caliber bullets like 200 grains and keep the powder charges on the mild side (Cowboy loads) and you will be a lot happier in the long run.
 
Lube is a big factor, I'm sure, but also individual Remington's react differently to fouling. Depending on the cylinder gap and the fit of the cylinder on the base pin some can foul out quicker than others. You might try lubing the base pin with something that has graphite in it. I used something once and I think it was graphite. I added it to my regular lube and it worked better. Hopefully somebody will comment further on the use of graphite. I think that's what it was but I can't remember for sure.
 
I used to use graphite mixed in Bore Butter but switched to Mobile 1 grease some time ago and now use it exclusively in sealing the frames (packing completely) from the hammer forward. It plays well with bp and should allow you to shoot all those cartridges if you use it on the base pin of your Remie.

If you have the means to do so, I'd remove material from the base pin (make the diameter smaller) starting about an 1/8" or just shy of it from the front of the cylinder to the same measurement short of the rear of the cylinder. Doesn't have to be very much material, you're just giving the fouling room to go between the cyl and the pin without binding. Look at the cyl pin of a Ruger Old Army. (One way is to place pin in a vice and use some course grit sandpaper in strips and with a "shoe shine" action. Be careful to stay within your marked area).

In the future some "smokless" rounds would keep you running a loooong time!! Lol!!

Mike
 
An early model Navy Arms, 36cal,1964 fouls very quickly while a Euro Arms NMA not so much. Both benefited from a base pin polishing, suggested by Mike. I also have a needle oiler that I apply a few drops at the juncture of base pin and cylinder face between rounds. Short of finding a competent gun smith who could install a bushing and mill the frame not much else helps. Your right about the early years what did they do except dismount and clean after a cylinder or two full. Even the Rogers and Spencers and ROA's with the cylinder bushings will foul quicker than a Colt.
 
Someone had posted a modification awhile back that involved putting a bushing that extended just past the face of the cylinder, as the ROA has that effectively diverts most of the fowling. It's a good fix, but requires detailed machining. The Mobil 1 grease does work, I've used it on my Walker and got several rounds through it with no drag, before it started dragging after 3 cylinders.
 
An early model Navy Arms, 36cal,1964 fouls very quickly while a Euro Arms NMA not so much. Both benefited from a base pin polishing, suggested by Mike. I also have a needle oiler that I apply a few drops at the juncture of base pin and cylinder face between rounds. Short of finding a competent gun smith who could install a bushing and mill the frame not much else helps. Your right about the early years what did they do except dismount and clean after a cylinder or two full. Even the Rogers and Spencers and ROA's with the cylinder bushings will foul quicker than a Colt.
I've fired over 100 rounds through my ROA at one range setting, actually ran out of powder or would have shot more, with no binding, I do use the Mobil 1 grease, but I was also shooting Goex and mostly round balls till I ran out and switched to Lee conicals.
 
Both of my 1860s have made it over 100 rounds without re-lubing or cleaning in one session with 777, Goex, and Pyrodex loose powder. The only propellant that bound things up was Pyrodex pellets. Those made it 8 cylinders full. I haven't done the same test with my NMAs yet but I will.
 
I've fired over 100 rounds through my ROA at one range setting, actually ran out of powder or would have shot more, with no binding, I do use the Mobil 1 grease, but I was also shooting Goex and mostly round balls till I ran out and switched to Lee conicals.

The ROA has a flange at the front of the cylinder that deflects much of the powder blast. It is designed to cure the problem the Remingtons have. It's one of several upgrades Bill Ruger designed in to the ROA. It may not be a period gun, but it's the best black powder revolver I have ever fired and I'll not get rid of it, not on your life. :D

I like my Remmy, too, though. Ain't like mine has problems until about the third cylinder. I load each cylinder off the gun, so I fire up 3 cylinders, pull 'em to load and clean up the cylinder pin while I'm at it.

Much ado about nothing unless you're going into battle with the gun. Even then, cavalry soldiers didn't reload the gun during a skirmish, they just switched guns. :D
 
Lots of useful information here --- Mobil 1 grease it is and a needle oiler on the side.
Thanks to all.
-----krinko
 
In 1872 they didn't use drop in conversion cylinders, for one thing

Actually the original modern version of the conversion cylinder for the 1858 Remington, was almost an exact duplicate of the conversion cylinder they used in the 1870's for that revolver. :D The difference was in the 1870's, they modified the hammer too, and installed a firing pin, and left open holes in the back plate on the cylinder for the pin to reach the cartridge primers. The hammer modification was held in place by a singe screw, and there was enough of the original hammer striking surface remaining, that the owner could (in theory) remove the firing pin from the hammer and install the old cylinder, to return the revolver to its original firing system. The owner could then use cartridges, but if in a pinch and could only find caps, could return the revolver to the older style, and back again when cartridges were again available (marketing ploy ;))

LD
 
I use Bore Butter like some have suggested. Just wipe down the cylinder pin and relube when reloading, when using that type of cylinder conversion. And yes, it's close to historically correct, there were many gunsmith conversions back then. Here are two different original drop in cylinders. AH2960c__15851.jpg conv.jpg
 
OK, so I've got this Pietta, a conversion cylinder and 194 of 200 black powder Goex .45 Colt cartridges.
It's 194 cartridges because I shot six of them late last year and after these six the fouling caused the cylinder axis to seize, which finished the range day.

View attachment 774113

So, what can I do to make this pistol work with these BP rounds? What did they do in 1872?

Please, this is already up at another forum and the first two replies were:
1.Shoot Trailboss.
2.Pull the cylinder axis and rub off the fouling or shoot Trailboss.
Please don't hit me with the Trailboss stick again.

Custer didn't lose Little Bighorn because all the revolvers had to be dismounted every six shots, did he? There must be a way!
-----krinko
That's a good looking 58.
Tell us, does the stainless model resist rust as well as you hoped and expected?
I sure like the looks of it!
 
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Howdy

First of all, anyone who tells you to use Trailboss in a Cap & Ball revolver simply does not know what they are talking about. Trailboss is NOT a Black Powder substitute, it is a modern Smokeless powder and is not suited for Cap & Ball revolvers no matter what anybody tells you.

Here is what is printed on the back of a bottle of Trailboss:

Trailboss%2002%20marked%20up_zpsusfghhii.jpg

****************************************************************

Correction: While Trail Boss is not recommended for Black Powder revolvers, modern conversion cylinders can be fired with Smokeless powder loads. However I still recommend against Trail Boss. It is a very fast powder, and some shooters still think it is a good substitute for Black Powder loads. I would recommend something a little bit slower, in a conversion cylinder in a steel frame, more like Unique. I would also be sure the loads are light.


*****************************************************************

The rest of this post deals with shooting Black Powder in various revolvers.

Now that we've got that out of the way, let's talk about Black Powder fouling in revolvers for a moment.

The main reason revolvers bind up with Black Powder is because fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap gets deposited on the cylinder pin. As the cylinder revolves, the fouling works its way down the pin and causes binding. Forget about the width of the barrel/cylinder gap, that has very little to do with it. Some folks will tell you to open the barrel cylinder gap to allow more space for fouling built up on the face of the cylinder. I can tell you from experience that this has little to do with BP binding. I have been shooting Black Powder in cartridges in revolvers for years, and all of them have their original factory barrel/cylinder gaps.

Those who posted about bushings on the front of the cylinder are correct. A cylinder bushing shields the underlying cylinder pin from the fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap. That is why it is there.

Here is a photo of three 45 Colt revolvers. Left to right they are from an Uberti Cattleman, stainless Ruger Vaquero, and Colt Single Action Army. You can see the bushing on the front of each cylinder. The bushings in the Cattleman and the Colt are removeable, and some will tell you that is an important feature to keep a revolver from biniding from BP fouling, but it is not true. That Ruger with the integral bushing in front shoots Black Powder cartridges just fine. I can go through an entire CAS match with any of these revolvers, and I never have to stop and clean anything. They just don't bind up.

cylinderbushings_zps027e4278.jpg




Let's look for a moment at the relationship between the cylinder bushing and the barrel/cylinder gap. This photo of the stainless Ruger illustrates it very well. The barrel extends through the frame, to the front face of the cylinder. The cylinder bushing extends forward off the cylinder to the frame. The fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap blasts out in a pattern pretty much resembling a flat disk. So the bushing extending all the way to the frame provides enough horizontal separation to deflect the fouling away from the cylinder pin. Cylinder bushings such as this were developed during the Black Powder cartridge era for exactly this purpose, to deflect fouling away from the cylinder pin and prevent binding.

VaqueroBarrelCylinderGapnoSN.jpg




Now, let's look at a couple of Cap & Ball revolvers. The cylinder on the left is from a Pietta replica of the 1860 Colt. The cylinder on the right is from a replica 1858 Remington. The first thing we notice is there is no bushing on the front of either cylinders. They are completely flat across the front face.

arborandpin_zps63c9b094.jpg




Now look at the relationship of the barrel/cylinder gap to the front of the cylinder on the Remington. There is no horizontal separation, the Remington binds up quickly because there is nothing to prevent fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap from being deposited directly onto the cylinder pin. Now look back at the previous photo and notice how much larger in diameter the Colt type cylinder arbor is than the Remington cylinder pin. Notice too there is a helical pattern of grooves on the Colt arbor. The purpose of the grooves is to create clearance for any powder fouling that worked its way onto the arbor from the barrel/cylinder gap. And the larger diameter of the Colt arbor creates more surface area, so any fouling blasted onto the arbor will not build up as high to create binding. This is why the open top Colt designs generally can shoot longer with Black Powder and not foul out as badly as the Remington design does.

Remington1858closeup_zps237cff69.jpg




In point of fact, when Remington brought out their cartridge version of the 1858 in 1875, they had learned the lesson and there was a bushing on the front of the cylinder, just as there was when the Single Action Army came out in 1873. So the 1875 Remington cartridge revolver did not foul out as badly as the earlier C&B model did.




Now let's talk about cartridges for a moment. Black Powder cartridges require a different type of bullet lube than Smokeless cartridges do. Modern hard bullet lubes combine with Black Powder fouling to create a hard caked, difficult to remove fouling. Black Powder requires a softer fouling that remains soft and gooey after it becomes infused with BP fouling. There are many recipes for Black Powder bullet lubes, I used to make up a mix of about 50/50 Crisco and beeswax. These days I use a commercial BP bullet lube made by SPG. The point is, if fouling that is infused with modern Smokeless bullet lube gets blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap and deposited onto the cylinder pin, it will tend to bind up the cylinder even quicker than the BP fouling would by itself. Use a good BP bullet lube, and plenty of it, and the fouling in the bore as well as any that gets deposited on the cylinder pin will remain softer and tend to bind up the gun less.



Which gets me to bullet selection. I used to use regular hard cast bullets for my Black Powder cartridges. I would melt the Smokeless lube out and pan lube with my Crisco/beeswax lube. But even so, the skimpy lube groove of a typical hardcast Smokeless bullet could not carry enough soft bullet lube to keep a rifle barrel covered with soft bullet lube for its entire length. The bullet would 'run out' of lube about 6" from the muzzle and leave hard fouling near the muzzle that had to be cleaned out or accuracy suffered. We could talk about lube cookies and all kinds of other stuff, but let's not go there. About this time I discovered the Big Lube family of bullets, designed specifically for Black Powder cartridges. These bullets feature a huge lube groove, that carries enough soft lube to keep a rifle barrel coated with soft lube its entire length. And they are the bees knees in revolvers too.

On the left in this photo is a 44-40 cartridge, and on the right is a 45 Colt. Next to each cartridge is their respective bullets, the 200 grain 44 caliber Mav-Dutchman Big Lube bullet for the 44-40, the 250 grain PRS Big Lube bullet for the 45 Colt. Each bullet is pictured with and without lube. Notice how huge the lube grooves are. These bullets carry enough lube to keep a rifle barrel lubed its entire length, and using them will also make almost any revolver perform like a champ with Black Powder.

Big%20Lube%20Bullets%2044-40%20and%2045%20Colt_zpsbxoyphpw.jpg




Yes, I did say almost. Sadly, the exception is the 44 caliber 1858 Remington. Because of the lack of a cylinder bushing on this design, and the narrow cylinder pin with no relief cuts, the Remington still tends to foul out more quickly than any other revolver that I shoot with Black Powder. Even with the Big Lubes.

But take heart. You may have noticed the Remington I have pictured is equipped with the exact same style of conversion cylinder as the Original Poster's Remington. My solution is simple. Unlike the conversion cylinders that feature a loading gate, this style needs to be popped out of the frame to be loaded. Every time I reload, I wipe off the front of the cylinder with a damp cloth, wiping away any fouling that has built up on the face of the cylinder. In addition, while the cylinder is out of the gun, I take a quick peek at the cylinder pin and wipe off any fouling that has built up with the same damp cloth. Simple. Then I reload, pop the cylinder back in, and I am ready to go.

RD_disassembled_01.jpg




I actually have two Remingtons that have this style of conversion cylinder, and sometimes bring them to a CAS match. At the unloading table I do a quick wipe down, and am ready to load again. I can get through an entire match this way, without the Remingtons binding up.

P.S. you may have noticed that I cut some grooves into the cylinder pin of my Remington, in an effort to mimic the clearance grooves on the Colt style pin. Unfortunately, they really don't help much. Before a match I load up the pin and the grooves with Bore Butter, but the effect is only marginal, it has not helped much. But it is easy enough to cut some grooves chucking the pin into a drill press and using a file. Caution: don't cut too deep.

P.P.S Yes, it is possible for a skilled gunsmith to install a bushing on the front of the cylinder of a Remington style cylinder. I know one smith who used to do this, but he is retired now. Obviously, a clearance cut needs to be cut into the frame of the revolver for the bushing to nestle in.

P.P.P.S Here is the website of BIg Lube bullets. They only sell molds, not bullets. But they will send you a small sample of bullets to try out.

https://www.biglube.com/

I have not cast my own Big Lube bullets in a few years. Now I buy them from this guy:

http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/BigLube.html
 
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I watched a youtube video where a knowledgeable bp shooter cut notches in part of the cylinder pin, top & bottom to hold grease. Claims it helps. I'll probably do the same to my 58 when I get around to it. Pretty straight forward.
 
i use BORE BUTTER on all of my Repo's and original cylinder pins, no problem.
 
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