Question: Is destroying an illegal gun legal and are you then OK?

According to Federal law the BATF considers a firearm or "gun " as the part that has the serial number on it. As long as this part is made permanently unuseable (crushed, chopped, cut up, welded, mangled, melted, etc.) then it is no longer a "gun."

In general almost everything else attached to the "gun" are just parts. An exception being parts that are designed or altered such as the sear and parts kits to shoot the gun in full-auto (if you do not have the proper licenses).

Then there is the issue of unregistered full-auto guns which are not legal to own in any manner.

For those that mistrust the Federal Government and agencies like the FBI and BATF and risk getting entangled in an investigation, legal proceedings and possible criminal charges destroying parts that are illegal or questionable is the most expedient way.

I am sure Frank or the other THR lawyers will chime in with the exact laws and BATF regulations.

BSA1 said:

According to Federal law the BATF considers a firearm or "gun " as the part that has the serial number on it. As long as this part is made permanently unuseable (crushed, chopped, cut up, welded, mangled, melted, etc.) then it is no longer a "gun."

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Almost. There are a few cases where parts of select-fire mechanisms are 'machine guns' even unserialized. There are also some detailed requirements for demilling; filling a receiver with weld metal renders it unusable by any practical definition, but does not meet ATF's requirements. They want to see torch cuts.

As per usual, the devil's in the details.

John G C 1 said:

Thanks. Interesting. I guess I can see why they decided in some cases to just destroy the stuff rather than risk a problem.

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While the destruction may or may not be technically legally sufficient, the people involved probably felt it simpler to destroy than to ask questions and risk legal entanglement. For whatever it's worth, at least physical destruction would show that the person tried to comply with their conception of the law, even if they didn't achieve compliance.

I'm sure the most common solution to finding Grampa's unregistered machine gun involves a hammer and a drive to the nearest lake. That's NOT legally sufficient, but it is simple, especially for those who have no means to find competent legal counsel.

If an NFA item and not registered, there is no record to "close" if torch cut to destruction.
If not registered in the one and only amnesty (and only a scant handful were), then any attention from Authority means a trip to a torch and the smelter (museums generally have enough, and typically want no part in unregistered items; "Agencies" have little or no need for relics).

Defaced s/n, the primary form of "illegal" Title 1 (chopped barrel or under o/a length is Title II) is a fuzzy area. If the offending s/n is run through a chipper or put to the torch, and records of it just dead end. If the serialized part is replaced, that will have a 'clean' set of records.

What's really fuzzy is if a person knowingly purchases something with a defaced s/n, even if their intention is to torch the offending part and replace it--that "knowingly" part up front is legally tricky.

When I worked for Les, the company got into trouble a couple of times, because we couldn't find and account for some 1911 frames that had been listed as "scrapped" . As in destroyed, retired from service. They still had a visible serial # and the ATF compliance people wanted to see them. We were fined and found them later, we had turned them into sandblasting fixtures. This got us off the excrement manifest but the fines stood.

I'd go with "don't ask, don't tell" and do what you think is best without leaving DNA or fingerprints behind

The Atlantic ocean is big and deep.

It would be a shame if the entire guns were destroyed. Some of the parts sets (complete gun minus receiver) for older machine guns are worth considerable money.

double tap

There's some discussion of this problem in another thread: https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-what-to-do-with-grandpas-machine-gun.570018/

I strongly suspect many, many "illegal" guns have been disposed of (torch cut, sledgehammered, or simply dumped in a lake, etc.) by the people who came across them and the story ended there . . . but it seems that a compelling argument can be made that they were in violation of the law for the short time they possessed them before destroying them. And if the gun was actually a "crime gun" destroying it might be considered destroying evidence. So it's quite a conundrum - call the authorities immediately and trust they won't prosecute (but reporting it WILL put you on their radar) . . . work through a lawyer you have to pay . . . or dispose of it yourself in such a way that the disposal is "clean" and nobody can track it back to you.

In the case of the OP, reporting them would probably have resulted in the police taking over their house and demolishing the interior, since some guns had already been found in the walls.

I checked on a police auction at Pigeon Forge and I presume they folllowed the law. There were several shotguns listed as buttstock with receiver and forearm, no barrel. Those were seized sawed-off shotguns, the barrels discarded since a shotgun with short barrel not on the NFA registry is illegal but a shotgun with no barrel is not an NFA violation just because it had a short barrel in the past.

At an earlier prison surplus auction, a local man bought a shotgun and discovered the barrel was shorter than 18". When he contacted local ATF office, they told him to remove the barrel, take it to a gunsmith and have a permanent extension added. I heard he had a Cutts Compensator put on it.

I will presume that that the discovery of an illegal firearm in the estate of a deceased person is definitely illegal if you continue possession of the firearm. Promptly contacting authorities to report the discovery should have no negative consequences for the reporting party. You may even get guidance on making the firearm legal; at worst it is contraband that must be surrendered. Getting caught by enforcement agents with contraband firearms usually does have more serious consequences.

There are attorneys familiar with state and federal firearms inheritance issues (some people may not be aware that Grandpa had acceptable NFA paperwork on that Tommy Gun discovered in the trunk with his war souvenirs).

some people may not be aware that Grandpa had acceptable NFA paperwork on that Tommy Gun discovered in the trunk with his war souvenirs

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What are the odds that if you "turn-in" such a NFA firearm that the ATF will even look to see if it was registered sometime in the past or will they just "take it off the street"? (If it was registered there must be records somewhere....)

Sometimes the ATF cannot find their records and ATF has told NFA firearms owners to safeguard their Form 1, Form 4, etc for that reason.

I picked up a milled Chinese Ak-47 at a garage sale. The bolt had been welded to the barrel, the end of the barrel was welded shut, and the top cover was tack-welded to the receiver. Date of manufacture was 1963; I figured it was a Vietnam-era training aid. Other than the tack welds, the receiver was perfect.

Some people on one of the gun forums got quite upset when I posted a picture, something about a "third hole," which was something new to me. So I sent some pictures and a letter to the ATF.

A few weeks later I got a call from a very nice ATF agent who said that since it had the selector hole, they considered it to be an "illegal machine gun." He told me I'd have to turn it in to the local ATF office, or to any police department that would accept it, or torch the receiver into pieces according to a drawing they had on the ATF web site.

I told him it would be easiest for me to cut it up, and asked if they wanted the pieces or any other proof that I'd destroyed it to their specifications. He said no, they'd take my word for it. Of course, they already had a letter with my name, address, and pictures with the serial number...

The pieces are on a shelf by my computer; hey, at least they're a conversation piece.

No SWAT teams, no black helicopters, and the agent I talked to was polite and helpful.


Sample set of one; some settling may have occurred during shipment, not legal advice, packaged by weight not volume, your mileage may vary.

This is just me, but if I happen to come across a gun I think it illegal i will just call the local constabulary and have them take it away.
As an example I`ll add this which I think will illustrate the point. Maybe not.

One day while out for a walk I found a 2 inch Ziploc bag crammed full of a white powder that had reddish brown streaks in it laying one the side walk. Probably meth. I wanted to walk it to the police station, but I did not have the time, but there was a fire station on the way home. I stopped by there gave my name, address the details of where I found it and off I went. Never heard another word.

I think turning in something illegal will not cause you any trouble at all. To me it is all about doing the right thing.

The questions I see raised by the opening post:
(a) whether destroying an illegal gun is legal, and
(b) whether after destroying an illegal gun are you still guilty of temporary possession of an illegal gun?

The specific example is the discovery in the personalty of the estate of a deceased person of what the gun shop owner considered illegal guns.

Situation of the opening post (paraphrased): ... a neighbor ... died suddenly last summer . . . . the ... wife called a ... gun shop to come in and take the guns and sell them. . . . . the owner of the shop said ... they found a few illegal guns and just destroyed them on their own . . . . .

The neighbor was described as a "prepper" which might imply he had possession of some military weapons illegal for civilian ownership but implies there was no evidence he had used the weapons to harm anyone.

My question is whether the gun shop owner made that decision just to destroy the guns on his own. There are anecdotes that when contacting the ATF regulators over a discovered illegal gun absent connection to some other crime, they will advise removing and destroying or removing and permanently lengthening a too short barrel. They have given instructions on torch cutting a machinegun receiver. ATF has often left the destruction of a discovered illegal gun to the discoverer and so advised them. (ATF enforcement agents catching you possessing or using an illegal gun won't be that merciful.)

GAF post #17 describes a different scenario of finding unexplained contraband on a city street.
My advice on questionable abandoned property of any sort would be:
_ treat it as a possible crime evidence
_ treat the location as a possible crime scene
_ do not touch
_ back up leaving as little disturbance as possible
_ contact authorities and give the location
_ ask if they want you to stay and give a statement
_ do not take possession
_ do not destroy on your own
I would assume an abandoned gun in a public place is evidence of a crime (or gross negligence at least) and calling the local police would be the responsible option.



As a side issue, I would unequivocably defend the opening post's use of the short phrase "suddenly last summer" as fair use under US copyright law, even though it is the title of a Tennessee Williams play.

..."suddenly last summer" as fair use under US copyright law, even though it is the title of a Tennessee Williams play.

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Not to mention it's also the title of a 1983 song by The Motels that was recorded as a homage to Tennessee Williams shortly after his death.