Gun Store Owner Liability and Illegal Aliens

[Oatka]

Expanding on an earlier thread re: illegals getting drivers licenses
the thought occurred to me that we could start our own campaign at a grass roots level.

Consider a visit to the gun shop or show. Buy a gun, fill out Form 4473, pass the background check and walk away with the gun (in most places). What did the seller use to ID you? Most likely your driver's license. The BATF form doesn't demand your SSN even though there's a box for it, so any illegal with a DL is home free. Most illegals don't have records or use a fake name so they'd pass the BG check.

So, what if the illegal goes on a killing/robbery spree? The media would have a field day on how easily the illegal got the gun and call for more gun control.

More ominously, the victims would sue the gun store owner for "negligence" even though he followed the rules.

It would seem to me, if for no other reason, gun store owners should do a CYA and refuse to accept those states' DLs as valid ID. Why wait to be sued?

According to one article, these states also issue DLs to illegals: AK, CT, ID, LA, MT, NM, NC, OH, RI, TN, UT, WA, WV.

 

[Standing Wolf]

...what if the illegal goes on a killing/robbery spree? The media would have a field day on how easily the illegal got the gun and call for more gun control.

They've been doing it all along. The only difference is that now they've got legal licenses instead of fake licenses.

One of the primary forces behind leftist extremist so-called "gun control" laws is fear of black and brown people with firearms, and that dates back to the years immediately following the Civil War.

 

[Redlg155]

According to one article, these states also issue DLs to illegals: AK, CT, ID, LA, MT, NM, NC, OH, RI, TN, UT, WA, WV.

What article are you referring to? Do you have a link?

To issue a DL to those folks would mean that they would be granted immunity. That's kinda hard to believe this is happening.


Anyway...a dealer may deny a gun sale to any person for any reason that may make him uncomfortable. A dealer who conducts a transaction without a SSN or proof of legal resident alien status is pretty much asking for trouble. No dealer should need a sale that bad to risk his license.


Good SHooting
Red

 

[Pilgrim]

Because California requires the dealer to explain and demonstrate the safe way to load and unload a handgun, and how to render it safe using safeties and trigger locks, my friendly neighborhood dealer has decided if the purchaser can't speak English he won't sell him a handgun. It has nothing to do with discrimination, racism, or what not. My dealer friend fears being sued because the buyer didn't fully understand the safety instructions and then goes and accidentally shoots himself or someone else.

Pilgrim

 

[C.R.Sam]

And another scary facet.
ATF F 4473 (5300.9) (English-Spanish) (5-2002) Has the front, part 1, written entirely in spanish. The instructions are written partly in English and partly in Spanish. Not translated, different areas in the different languages.

If dealer not very literate in both languages, can easily err and go jail.

Me no sell to person no speekee english....or American.

Sam

 

[Oatka]

Redlg155: Sorry, should have backed up that statement:

Driver's Licenses For Illegals = Pseudo Amnesty
(eighth paragraph).

Ms. Schafly included NV which is incorrect (they demand a certified birth certificate, visa, or legal immigration papers). If she's wrong on the others perhaps posters from those states can clue us in.

Next month I'm selling a few items (as an individual) at a gun show in Utah and will be displaying a sign that says I won't accept DLs as IDs from the above states. Sure to generate questions/complaints and will help spread the message.

If the States and Feds won't take action, maybe we at the grass-root level can.

BTW, here's another good article which echoes my original thread:
California Law Undermines Air Safety

Neither articles address the firearms angle so I didn't post the full story but if you're interested in pushing this, save the articles to your computer for future use.

C.R. Sam and Pilgrim: Those are interesting posts. I didn't know the BATF had dual language 4473s. The "train before sell" is another newbie - I knew it was in the works but didn't know it had been enacted. I'll add them to my email ammunition (ahem).

 

[C.R.Sam]

I wouldn't call them "dual language" 4473s.
More like "other language".
They are NOT translated.
Even parts of the instructions to the dealer are not translated, they are in the "other" language.

Sam

 

[Keith]

Scary isn't it?

And yet, if you refuse or even ask for more information you'll likely be sued for "discrimination" if the individual is not an illegal... And remember, there are plenty of legal alien residents who CAN buy guns and now you have no way to tell the difference.

And you're right - when the problem presents, the same people and politicians who favored giving illegals drivers licenses will now attack the gun shops for following the law they created...

It's insane. If you live in California and are not attempting to move out, I don't understand you. England with palm trees and dirtier air...

Keith

 

[spacemanspiff]

wait a minute now! these illegals are an important part of the voting sector! they couldnt possibly be criminals!


i'll help build the wall and plant the mines along the border, of BOTH mexico and canada!

 

[ahenry]

To issue a DL to those folks would mean that they would be granted immunity. That's kinda hard to believe this is happening.

A drivers license has nothing to do with citizenship.

 

[C.R.Sam]

A drivers license has nothing to do with citizenship.

Shouldn't
And it doesn't directly.
But it is all I have to show to register to vote.
Registration card gets me into the polls.

It is picture identification, that will allow me to buy a gun.

Shoot.....I have even gotten a passport without showing proof of citizenship. Verbal testamony worked.

Sam

 

[Redlg155]

A drivers license has nothing to do with citizenship.

Citizenship? No...

Immunity from arrest by a LEO during a traffic stop? YES.

To issue a drivers license to an individual known to be in the US illegally is to grant that person immunity from prosecution. The intent of issuing a drivers license is to allow the above mentioned individual to drive legally without fear of being arrested.

In fact I would bet the ACLU and other such organizations would not allow the licenses to be any different that U.S. resident DLs, therefore eliminating any chance of "discrimination" or "discovery".

From there it's just a skip and a jump to get all the privileges of a normal citizen.

Good Shooting
Red

 

[ahenry]

CR Sam,

Shouldn't
And it doesn't directly.
But it is all I have to show to register to vote.
Registration card gets me into the polls.

Very true. Personally I think you should have to show proof of paying taxes in order to vote, but that’s a separate issue.

Redlg,

The intent of issuing a drivers license is to allow the above mentioned individual to drive legally without fear of being arrested.

Perhaps to a small extent you’re right but more than a few illegals are already more than willing to drive without a license and they have very little fear of being arrested. In fact illegals can often get off easier simply because local LE can't really do anything with them and there often isn't enough interior immigration enforcement to deal with one or two illegals being held by some county somewhere. I don’t take issue with allowing illegals to get a DL for the reason you mention but rather because it is tacit approval of their illegal activity.