65 Shots in 15 seconds

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I read about that too, it is both pathetic and disturbing. 65 rounds went SOMEWHERE, but did nothing to address the actual situation on the ground. 65 separate and distinct opportunities to kill or injure a bystander. I would love to hear about property damage- odds say there MUST have been some (again, 65 chances). It sounds like the SFPD should spend some more time and effort on basic skill training.
 
When I read about this shooting...I was very thankful that they were carrying hollow-points which prevented any pass-through's so no innocent bystanders were hurt.:)

Perhaps training would be more effective if they could instill some FEAR into them and let them feel what it's like and how you must suppress the adrenaline hit and perform your shooting disciplines. This looked like pure panic and the results are not surprising. Forcing everyone to compete in shooting games would at least maybe get some adrenaline going so it sure wouldn't hurt them and might actually help. It's sad but the Police men and women who participate here on the forum are in the top 1 % and actually CARE about their abilities, where most rank and file seem to view their sidearms as a burden they must carry and qualification is just a pain in their posteriors.
 
Really hard to criticise unless you've been through it. I have, 8/14/87. Paper don't shoot back. One falling doesn't help perception, as they may of thought he was down. Most were standing out from cover, if they are exmilitary, that could be military cover fire training kicking in. Either way, although i don't like all the rounds down range, the idea is to stop the threat, which they did. Mission accomplished.
 
Hey.....I just had a thought related to this incident: how about a graduated qualification system where you get to carry a more powerful and effective round ONLY if you shoot it well enough. For the sluggards who don't care to practice....and suck....they carry a .22. Want to carry a 9mm? You need to up your qualification. 10mm? Again....prove that you're better with it. I know...I know....the Union would have nothing to do with such things and many Depts. would say that it would make people feel bad that they suck and put them in more danger. Was just a thought.....
 
FL-NC said:
I read about that too, it is both pathetic and disturbing. 65 rounds went SOMEWHERE, but did nothing to address the actual situation on the ground. 65 separate and distinct opportunities to kill or injure a bystander. I would love to hear about property damage- odds say there MUST have been some (again, 65 chances). It sounds like the SFPD should spend some more time and effort on basic skill training.
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Since the police in CA no longer seem to go after a lot of criminals, they should have plenty of time for practice......of course, the FFL fees to buy ammo might make it too expensive........ :eek:
 
Saddlebag Preacher said:
Really hard to criticise unless you've been through it. I have, 8/14/87. Paper don't shoot back. One falling doesn't help perception, as they may of thought he was down. Most were standing out from cover, if they are exmilitary, that could be military cover fire training kicking in. Either way, although i don't like all the rounds down range, the idea is to stop the threat, which they did. Mission accomplished.
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I've done it quite a few times. here's the thing- people in Special Operations are trained to a high standard- it costs a LOT of $ in time, ammunition, and equipment to train us- we regularly wore out our weapons and had to repair/replace them. REALISTIC training, where "flyers" at close quarters in an urban setting are just not acceptable- to say nothing of 65 flyers. As a result, our chain of command and our country expect a high standard of performance, obviously, but another component of such stressful training besides mission accomplishment is to mitigate collateral damage to bystanders as well as hazards to other team members. No one wants to hit an objective with the 3 stooges in tow. My point is that US law enforcement - who work in our communities here in the US, and not in a war zone- should be trained and held to similar standards, and I'm not just talking about the SWAT guys. Just my opinion.
 
65 Shots in 15 seconds
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Jeff Cooper, June, 1993

I have in hand a pretty fascinating document from New York entitled "A Firearms Discharge Assault Report, 1991." It is so thick that tabulation is impractical but it is certainly interesting to note that the law enforcement establishment seems to have forgotten about the use of sights, providing they ever knew about the use of sights. Again and again we have reports of shootings at ranges of 5 feet and under in which many shots were exchanged with no hits.

I suppose it must be accepted that the majority of people who opt for a job in law enforcement are not interested in marksmanship and only people who are interested in marksmanship can be counted on to hit what they shoot at. This is hard for me to accept. I can sympathize with Simon Bolivar, when on his death bed, he sighed, "I have plowed the sea."
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https://billstclair.com/cooper/jeff1_1.html
 
Good Ol' Boy said:
For those that didn't get the "poot" reference in the OPs post.
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I've been waiting for somebody to catch that. That is only reason I made the post. Other than a few details it's the same story. Must be a California thang, because the few deputies I know, even in the heat if they shoot 65 rounds your gonna need some band aids.
I have kin in California that are cops so I will have to give them a call tomorrow.
 
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ATLDave said:
BASED ON MY OBSERVATIONS IN PRACTICAL SHOOTING GAMES WHERE COPS PARTICIPATE:

I actually think better firearm training would reduce the number of incidents in which well-intentioned-but-mistaken cops shoot various people who are not actually a threat. Most cops have a painfully slow draw and very poor indexing. They usually can hit things when they shoot slowly (reflective of what most of their quals require), but they cannot do it very fast. Those who hang around the gun games usually get fast, just like anyone else, but the average cop is painfully slow on the draw, transition, etc.

Now, consider a situation in which a cop is trying to decide whether a suspect in a poorly-lit environment has a gun in waistband or just a folded up baseball cap. The shorter the time between the cop deciding to fire and landing hits, the longer the cop can afford to wait. That extra tenth of a second may provide the additional information needed to decide not to shoot at all.

I think police agencies ought to require cops to at least show up and watch a few USPSA or 3gun matches so they can get a sense of how fast ordinary, non-pro shooters can learn to go. Many of them simply have no idea.
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As a retired LEO,and firearms instr as well as a D/T instr = your are SPOT ON.

It is too sad that the MAJORITY of officers are crappy shots and barely make their yearly qual.

AND they cannot tell you what gun model they are wearing,or how to clean it and then reassemble after its cleaned.

I would LOVE to see the shooting be a monthly thing,and you have to qual each month ---- or lose your gun and be assigned inside with no gun [ called the rubber gun squad or the bow & arrow squad ]

And then you MUST shoot active shooter drills with at least simunitions and actors trying to distract you.

And then do "force on force" training at least once a year = at least once a year.
 
Why are police still carrying firearms there? They should be passing out coloring books and have safe places for people to talk about their feelings. After all, that’s how you stop crime...
 
The only downside is that there aren't enough cops on the street now as it is; taking even more off the streets leaves even more folks unprotected, especially in those states with restrictive civilian carry. JMO
 
George P said:
The only downside is that there aren't enough cops on the street now as it is; taking even more off the streets leaves even more folks unprotected, especially in those states with restrictive civilian carry. JMO
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Perhaps there would be more good men and women interested in the profession if the various city/state Depts. weren't so enamored with 'PC' and could get back to Law Enforcement. PA State Police used to require that you be at least 6' and 180lbs, and the VAST majority of Troopers were some pretty big boys who normally could handle most any situation without resorting to their sidearm. Their presence was often enough to settle people down...but these days when a 5'-nothing woman shows up...what option does she have but to mace/taser or shoot someone who doesn't respond to her request to calm the heck down? There are certain jobs where you just shouldn't let ANYONE participate or the performance will be degraded. Sadly...I think we're seeing the results of this now in too many places.
 
One thing I forgot to mention is that in real life that first shooting incident can be expected to show poor performance (everything from waiting until the opponent has already commenced shooting at you to very poor results -nothing hit that needed to be hit...) but things change after that. Any officer's second shooting event (if it ever occurs) will have much different results - at least that's what we noted...

In my one shooting event it took quite a bit before I fired a shot. After that, when I realized how poorly prepared I was -and I'd already done almost four years in the service (1968 to 1971) including a stint in a very bad place (but not a combat type- just a pencil pusher...) it was time for me to actually learn what I really needed to know - and to prepare myself for that second event, which never came....

Remember that for any young officer that sidearm they carry is just about their biggest hazard - and everyone knows it. Not many jobs where a mistake not only can get you fired - but also prosecuted.... All of those circumstances work against confident shooting in a crisis situation - and everything said about the low actual level of training most receive is right on the money. And if police work can be stressful (understatement) wait until you have to counsel a young cop that just been in his or her first real life shooting event...
 
Well, when you have mayors more interested in protecting illegals, what would one expect.
If the mass don't wake up....
 
This doesn't surprise me, and while some of us think differently, it likely would be the same if any group of us were involved. Regardless of training, most cops are not "battle hardened" and this was probably the first shooting any of them were involved with, which is a good thing I might add. Anyone that's hunted knows that punching holes on paper at the range doesn't fully prepare you to punch a hole in an animal in the woods. It's got to be even worse when that "animal" is shooting back, even if it's just 2 rounds.
 
lemaymiami said:
One thing I forgot to mention is that in real life that first shooting incident can be expected to show poor performance (everything from waiting until the opponent has already commenced shooting at you to very poor results -nothing hit that needed to be hit...) but things change after that. Any officer's second shooting event (if it ever occurs) will have much different results - at least that's what we noted...

In my one shooting event it took quite a bit before I fired a shot. After that, when I realized how poorly prepared I was -and I'd already done almost four years in the service (1968 to 1971) including a stint in a very bad place (but not a combat type- just a pencil pusher...) it was time for me to actually learn what I really needed to know - and to prepare myself for that second event, which never came....

Remember that for any young officer that sidearm they carry is just about their biggest hazard - and everyone knows it. Not many jobs where a mistake not only can get you fired - but also prosecuted.... All of those circumstances work against confident shooting in a crisis situation - and everything said about the low actual level of training most receive is right on the money. And if police work can be stressful (understatement) wait until you have to counsel a young cop that just been in his or her first real life shooting event...
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I've heard it said in several of the advanced training courses I attended in the military, as well as by personnel assigned to allied Special operations units from the UK, Australia, and Canada- that in a real fight, skills and efficiency typically take a 50% reduction. This is why people who do this sort of thing for a living should train frequently. When I was in the military deployed anywhere, we always trained when we weren't on actual missions- CQB, patrolling SOP's, sniper and long range rifle training, crew served weapons, etc. MOST days resulted in getting GSR on your hands, even when we were on base.
 
It seem we have a lot of armchair worries with no real life experience in combat that think they could have done better. It ain’t target shooting when the target has a loaded gun.
They say that 65 rounds were fired in 15 seconds, but how many officers fired. We haven’t heard about any innocent buy standers being shot or property damage. Could the reason be that the bad guy had such great cover he wasn’t hit?
 
So, there appears to be 7 deputies in the video that need MORE gun control. Suspect fired 2 of the 67, deputies fired 65 (some aiming rifles) and no hits for either side! This is not the first time, I remember years back a similar incident in NYC, I think that was more like 45 shots, no hits.

I'm sorry but I would be pretty embarrassed about that if it was me.

I got a kick at the end of one of the videos when one was calling for 'More ammo!, more ammo!' :rofl:
 
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